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Matt Singer works for Forward Montana. He also is a partner in DP Productions, a small, Montana-based T-Shirt company.


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Education: Creating Markets and Distorting Labor Markets

by: Matt Singer

Mon Jan 19, 2009 at 09:26:22 AM MST


David Crisp wonders why the libertarian conservative Rob Natelson wants taxpayers on the hook for the cost of an education at Sidwell for every American student. Price tag: $29k a piece.

It's a good question. One of the things I've often wondered about is why education is one of the areas where libertarians basically give up the ghost on the rest of their theories. They don't rail against government intervention or say that the real driver in cost is government subsidies, they basically just demand that we build an education system that looks a lot like the French health care system -- privately controlled, largely non-profit health care delivery system financed primarily through public insurance (aka vouchers).

Alternately, they even like something closer to Britain's health care system, but with competing networks of hospitals (charter schools).

Anyways, it is all a bit funny.

The strange thing about education, though, is that it is a realm where the fundamental conservative critique is that we pay too much to the workers and we get poor results and the solution is to pay people less. Now, I'm not really sure that either part of this critique is correct, but it is completely baffling. Show me a single corporation on the planet that would conclude that its talent pool for hiring was insufficient and that their proper response is to slash the wages being offered and tell the applicants that they are stupid and I'll show you a firm about to hit really hard times.

Now, it is true that education costs more than it did 50 years ago. But K-12 education is extremely labor intensive. We have teacher to student ratios of probably 25:1 or 30:1. Include other staff -- executive, administrative, athletic, artistic, and support -- and you've got a lot of people working hard for each student. Throw in some particularly high-cost operations like special education (conservatives are pretty good at glossing over this issue) and you need to figure out how to pay for it.

The next piece of this is that people who enter teaching as a profession are not without other options. They come out of school with a B.S. or a B.A. and many public school teachers have advanced degrees, either in education or in a specific field of study.

Although teacher pay may have increased in the last several decades (I honestly don't have inflation-adjusted numbers handy), so has pay in sectors that compete with education, by a lot. If you're a starting college student with some solid math skills and you start evaluating options, which looks more rewarding? Teaching 8th grade math or writing algorithms for Google?

Frankly, given the way that many of our nation's loudest voices (largely from the right) have crapped all over teaching as a profession -- financially and rhetorically -- I'm amazed at the large number of extremely capable people entering the profession (folks like the writers of Intelligent Discontent are the kind of people I'm thinking of).

People choose their jobs for a number of reasons and many of us choose to do work that pays less than what we could earn in other fields because we find the non-monetary rewards to be significant. But teaching and much of other public service hasn't just been degraded financially. Meanwhile, the private sector has been held up as a bizarre pinnacle of brilliance and efficiency (a claim belied by any trip to a Carmike movie theater).

I'm actually pretty supportive of some big think on education policy. Our schools right now work pretty well for kids like me who grow up middle class in a large city in Montana. They don't work so well in other places. But beating up on teachers and their unions is only likely to make the problem worse. Lower pay, less job security, and insults don't improve productivity. They make it worse.

Matt Singer :: Education: Creating Markets and Distorting Labor Markets
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I'm pretty much in agreement Matt - (0.00 / 0)
I really have no complaints about the education being delivered here in Billings - The kids over at Senior High who actually want an education score in the top 10% of all kids in the USA on SAT's -

What I get out of Natelsons column is that public schools are not good enough for the children of the Messiah, the Great One, his Holiness, the Protector of the Poor, Barack Obama, and that all children should be so fortunate.


Heh (0.00 / 0)
Agreeing that Billings public schools are pretty good, your last sentence proves you didn't attend one, Eric.

"(T)hat all children should be so fortunate" as to what Eric?  What you wrote implies that they should be so fortunate as to be Obama's children.  If one is at all generous in offering understanding to your drivel, it appears that you think, as does Professor Bob, that it would be only fair for all children to be able to benefit from a $29,000 education.  No shit, Sherlock.

As an aside, how many mill levies have you voted against, Eric?

(It is really annoying to the thinking person when you persist in blanket agreement with posts and comments you clearly don't even understand.)


[ Parent ]
actually - (0.00 / 0)
I vote against most of the school levies here lately -

but it has nothing to do with the teachers, it's against the school board and their adgenda -

like building a high-shool in a cornfield - to help the realtors develop the area, and acknowledging that they wouldn't have enough money to operate it without closing Senior High for example -

If they want me to vote for levies - the BEA needs to put up better candidates than Mary Jo Fox -

And Rob - you must be either in denial about the elitism of Barack Obama, or you don't understand how the rich Democrats think -

Public Schools are not good enough for the anointed-ones children, but they are good enough for the 'other' children of the country -  


[ Parent ]
I am an old man who is not afraid to repeat himself: (0.00 / 0)
I hope this new administration does all of the things you rightwingcrazies are afraid it will...

[ Parent ]
you better hope not Jed - (0.00 / 0)
Montana isn't just Missoula - If his Holiness, the Messiah, the Protector of the Poor, Barack Obama keeps his pledge to close all the coal mines and coal fired generating plants, and raises taxes Montana will be worse off than California is now -  

[ Parent ]
What? (0.00 / 0)
Montana has a lot of coal mines, Eric?  Where?  Eric, I would suggest that since you and your rightwing brethren are the new minority, make yourselves to appear as VICTIMS as soon as possible.  It's your only hope.  For you see, the rest of the country, and the entire world, have moved on.  Maybe you can get a job based on your newfound minority status!  Kinda like a mental handicap!

[ Parent ]
If Barack Obama pledged to close all the coal mines... (0.00 / 0)
why did I just see a coal industry ad featuring Barack Obama speaking about clean coal?

Follow-up: why do you make stuff up?


[ Parent ]
but he promised (0.00 / 0)
i heard b hussein obama in a speech myself say he wanted to shut down all coal fired generating and since coal is our biggest natural resource coobs is right

[ Parent ]
this is too easy - (0.00 / 0)
"So if somebody wants to built a coal-powered plant, they can; it's just that it will bankrupt them because they're going to be charged a huge sum for all that greenhouse gas that's being emitted."

"Under my plan of a cap and trade system, electricity rates would necessarily skyrocket. Even regardless of what I say about whether coal is good or bad. Because I'm capping greenhouse gases...they would have to retrofit their operations. That will cost money. They will pass that money on to consumers."

"The only thing I've said with respect to coal, I haven't been some coal booster. What I have said is that for us to take coal off the table as a (sic) ideological matter as opposed to saying if technology allows us to use coal in a clean way, we should pursue it."

These are some of many more quotes from his worship, his Holiness, Protector of the Poor, President Obama - you want some more Matt?


[ Parent ]
I think those quotes prove my point (0.00 / 0)
Obama isn't saying he wants to shut down the coal industry. He's saying he wants to reduce carbon emissions. If clean coal technology can do that, great. If it can't, we need to stop using coal. That's not a fringe position. That's a mainstream position. It's also pretty similar to that held by a number of conservatives who believe in global warming. Rather than having government pick the solution by subsidizing or opposing certain forms of energy production, punish the badness -- carbon production -- by making it more expensive. We'll shift to the more cost-effective ways of reducing carbon output. That may well be clean coal (which, it should be noted, a number of my friends hold very reasonably skeptical views of, including concerns that have nothing to do with the carbon questions).

[ Parent ]
A few things (0.00 / 0)
  • As I think Mark T pointed out, Presidential kids in a public school is actually a massive distraction for the school.
  • DC schools ain't Billings schools. I've read a bit about the new school chancellor out there and some things sound promising about the direction, but D.C.'s public education system is a bit of a mess.
  • The point at the beginning of this post is that I don't actually think that Natelson believes "that all children should be so fortunate" as to get a Sidwell education. Hell, that's too lefty of a notion for me to believe. Sidwell costs nearly $30,000 a year. Anyone who wants to pay that and whose children can get accepted are allowed to (it's called a market), but the idea that we should offer $30k vouchers for education strikes me as a bit insane.


[ Parent ]
One thing that wasn't pointed out in comments (0.00 / 0)
The Treasury department petitioned President Carter not to have Amy attend public school because of the security nightmares that it entailed, including the overwhelming expense.  It simply saves taxpayers money having high risk targets attend a private facility.

(Yes, I have read the wingnuts and their stupid misapplication of equality arguments:  'why can't all our kids have the same security, wahhhh?'  Limbaugh had a fit over this as regards Chelsea Clinton.  The fact that not all of our kids can be held to ransom the US Treasury or our nuclear arsenal might have a wee bit to do with that, but don't expect the nutters to see the point.  What they are seeking isn't an argument for vouchers or better schools.  What they are seeking is another way to call liberals 'hypocrites', and pat themselves on the back for another point scored.)


[ Parent ]
Voucher Agenda (0.00 / 0)
It's pretty clear what the  voucher agenda is all about. It's not to get inner city kids into better schools, but to provide a $10,000 tax break for the kind of people who can afford $30,000/yr schools.

At the same time, conservatives hope to further break the public education system by denying it funding.

To me, it's very interesting. Conservatives actually seem to ask a lot of great questions about the education system. It's just that their answers are so terrible.

On a side note, did the wingnuts have a meeting last week to cry about how popular Obama is? It's sad that that's all they've got, really. It could be that he is popular because he is following the least competent President in the history of the United States.  Hell, George Bush I might be this popular now.


I think that depends (0.00 / 0)
A lot of voucher advocates really are drawn to the idea of competition improving performance. It's just that the actual architects of this seem to have, well, shaky motivations as you say.

Agreed on the questions front. Questioning the education system as currently built is great. It's chock full of inequities and inefficiencies. But answers that rely on denigrating school teachers or on trying to create a Sidwell-price education for every American student are bound to fail.


[ Parent ]
South Carolina (0.00 / 0)
I was in the South Carolina school system as a student many years ago.  I remember waiting in the gym once a year as my mother and I hoped I would win a spot at the charter school in the lottery system.  South Carolina per student pays more than Montana yet ranks near the lowest in the nation.  Schools competing, like the charters, were extremely successful.  Every single family in my neighborhood hoped for a slot.  This wasn't theory, this wasn't arguing what worked better.  It was solid proof.  Charter schools were extremely effective and spent the same amount of money per student as the normal public school.  So, why would you be against a charter system?  I only hope the people running the system when I have kids old enough are smart enough to create charter schools.

Southern states also have weak teachers' unions (0.00 / 0)
The question with charter schools is whether or not they actually drive the success or whether the mere act of self-selection by demonstrating choice is the driving issue behind the success of charters. Research is mixed as I understand it.

[ Parent ]
Definitely (0.00 / 0)
As a concept, I think competition for schools would be great. The issue is what motivates the agenda. I am deeply skeptical about the claims made by charter schools, who often have the power to self-select students, skewing the results.

Competition is great. It just seems like its advocates in education want their preferred solutions to get an unfair head start.


[ Parent ]
Competition, my ass! (0.00 / 0)
After a private or charter school has chosen the best students, there is not much opportunity for the public system to shine--but in an instance of a truly random selection process, one would be left with certain evidence of the results of better pay and better environment on learning by a real cross section.
Is there random selection south of the Mason-Dixon line?

[ Parent ]
Random...as far as I know (0.00 / 0)
Jed, as far as I know it was random.  Or so we were told.  This experience however made me completely against vouchers.  So, when I didn't win a charter slot in a lottery system I applied for a private school voucher.  Vouchers are ridiculous and I saw them being used to ping people against each other.  In my district private schools were not large enough to warrant sports teams.  So, a private school student could choose where he played sports.  Pretty soon, the really skilled athletes were getting vouchers like scholarships.  I never won the charter lottery nor was I good enough at sports to be awarded a voucher.  I would like to see a system where kids don't literally have to win a lottery to go to a good school.  I was lucky enough where later in life my parents moved to Montana and I got to be truly blessed to finish with a Montana education.

[ Parent ]
Was every student entered? (0.00 / 0)
Or only students who wanted to go to a charter school? Did charter schools accommodate special needs children?

[ Parent ]
From my perspective (0.00 / 0)
More money should be appropriated by whatever levels of governance to provide an equal lopportunity for education
to all kids; but there should be some measure for whatever institution is awarded responsibility.  
I would not be averse to awarding responsibility to MEA and/or MFT; but I would insist on oversight by taxpayers...  

[ Parent ]
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