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Matt Singer works for Forward Montana. He also is a partner in DP Productions, a small, Montana-based T-Shirt company.


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Tepid

by: Wulfgar

Tue Jun 24, 2008 at 10:31:04 AM MDT


(I think Wulfgar! does a decent job explaining why many of us are so passionate about Obama's campaign even if he is a centrist. Not only do we want a break with the past, we want to change how we talk and think about politics... - promoted by Jay Stevens)

(This diary is mostly in response to a post from Anna to which I reacted harshly.  Kindly don't mistake it for an apology, however.)

Let's take a walk down memory lane, shall we?

4 years ago, the Democrats had a candidate for President who would be considered terrific by almost any metric.  Multiply decorated war hero, eloquent speaker, intelligent, life devoted to public service with a metric buttload of experience under the direct tutelage of a Democratic party icon.  He had solid credentials on most every issue  supported by the Democratic party.  John Kerry should have creamed W.  He obviously didn't.

Wulfgar :: Tepid
After the month-long shock wore off for most Democrats, the dissection began, and we all got to watch damn near every Democrat on the continent convince themselves that John Kerry was a weak candidate.  'He was tepid' (the word I was most astounded by), 'he didn't fight back when attacked', 'he didn't campaign hard enough'  I don't believe any of those accusations to be true or factual.  There are reasons that John Kerry lost (failure to run a 50 state campaign, shenanigans in Ohio, ...) but the weak blame laid in his lap by Democrats struck me then as now to be little more than CYA.  for the last several years, a collective amnesia seems to have taken hold, where John Kerry will take a strong stand on something, and Democrats will say, "gosh, where was that John Kerry when he was running for President?"  That was the John Kerry that ran for President, we were just focused on the gotcha instead of the winning.  There are things that John Kerry could have done better, but there's one helluva lot that Democrats could have done better.

Ya' see, The republicans were right about one thing.  Most Democrats were clearly focused on "anybody except Bush".  I think if we'd have nominated a platypus, the polling likely would have remained the same. (Yes, I know that's an exaggeration.)  In the actual analysis of the election, what swung the vote for Bush were the so-called "Security Moms", women who self describe as Independents or even Democrats, but just didn't trust John Kerry to defend Precious Q. Snowflake from the 'terrists'.  The funny part is, I don't think those people, because it wasn't just women who voted on that weak distrust, needed John Kerry to convince them of his strengths.  They wanted their Kerry-voting neighbors to show the confidence in the candidate that they themselves lacked.  Sadly, we were all either sharing their distrust or too damn busy attacking Bush (ANYBODY BUT BUSH!) to actually, you know, support our candidate.  That's why Kerry lost.  Not because he was a tepid candidate, but because we Democrats showed tepid support.  Our support of our ideals was plenty strong, but in a Republic, if you don't imbue those ideals into a candidate, you lose.  And we did.

The question remains, did we learn anything from that.  Some of us did.  Howard Dean formulated the 50 state strategy, which Barack Obama effectively used to defeat a very powerful primary opponent.  I think most of us learned that the change we want and need isn't going to happen overnight.  It will take more and better Democrats, and that's a long hard slog.

Some Democrats, on the other hand, don't seem to have learned a damn thing.  They are still fixated on ideas that don't work; thinking that one candidate with the proper party credentials will 'win the game'; thinking that America boils down to Ohio, Michigan and Florida, and thinking that anything is better than a Republican in the White House.  In other words, they are fixated on an ideal of the Democratic party and it's candidates that has shown a remarkable aptitude for failure, (even in the primary just past.)  And in the most remarkable of almost Republican twists, they project their own short-sighted idealism onto their opponents.

It is my opinion that it is well passed the time for Democrats to wake up to few realities.  No candidate will embody everything you want and more.  The realities of politics are not such that each person gets what they want.  Seemingly since Ronald Reagan, Americans have carried a national delusion that our President needs to be just like us, and give us everything that we ask for, or that person is unworthy of our support.  Our sense of individualism appears to overridden our reason, at which point all we have to hang onto is our idealism.  That is a national zeitgeist custom made for Republican victory and service to those most well heeled to manipulate that idealism.  The reality is that we are not special little snowflakes.  We won't get everything we want, and our desires for ourselves cannot trump the good of the country as carried out by the candidates we elect.  Speaking personally, I don't want politicians who 'feel my pain'.  I want politicians who will do something about it ... for all of us.  Those are the people to whom I will give my whole hearted support.

Which brings us to the present.  The Democrats have another candidate who is, by most metrics, terrific.  He has a track record of building consensus.  He is possibly one of the best public speakers of modern times. His ideas are soundly in the camp of the Democratic platform.  He has international appeal as well as an appeal to minority voters.  He is young, attractive and energetic.  And he's running against a lobbyist- gelded dinosaur that he should quite easily crush.

However, Democrats being Democrats, we're already looking for ways to snatch defeat from the angry jaws of victory.  It isn't at all surprising to view the claims concerning Obama coming from Republicans.  They are mostly untrue and easy to counter with polling, facts and a small degree of objectivity:

'Obama supporters are brainwashed children drunk on charisma.  They will suffer 'Obama Fatigue''.  Not likely.

'Obama is inexperienced; an empty suit.'  Simply not true.  He has more experience in public service than GW did.

'Obama can't win the big states'.  Better check the polling, 'cause that's just not the case.

'Obama can't win any demographic except black people and young folks'.  He already leads (in aggregate polling) among the hardest demographic for a Democrat to crack, white males between 30 and 50.  The only demographic in which Obama shows any weakness is among the elderly.

I won't even go into the more despicable attacks (race baiting, religious terror ...) being thrown out by the Republican fear generation machine.  I wanted to point out these above complaints because they are coming as often from Democrats as they are from Republicans.  And if we have learned anything from 2004, it's that weak support, lacking any confidence in our candidate, can be more damaging than no support at all.

I, for one, have no patience left for those who claim support while tearing at the candidate and the candidate's supporters.  The time for political illusions is well past; realism about politics and our politicians is exactly the change that America needs.  Part of that realism is accepting that you can't always have what you want.  As regards the FISA reauthorization vote, which has many Democrats disappointed in candidate Obama, I have to ask what the reality we wished to accomplish was.  Let's be honest.  The whole fight was over retroactive immunity for the telecoms who aided the criminal activities of an out-of-control executive branch.  What we wanted was a statement that these criminals will be held accountable.  Was that realistic?  You bet.  Was it politically realistic?  About as much as impeachment.  Was this the stand upon which we want candidate Obama to stake his election?  Not me.  Vengeance is best left to those who have the power, not those who are seeking it.

We've played a game.  A game we've been losing for  going on thirty years now.  We've been trading 'gotchas' with the Republicans, only theirs have been a helluva lot bigger than ours, because Democrats keep losing sight of the goal in favor of the short desire.  The goal is to get our candidate elected President.  The death of telco-immunity would have been a nice gotcha, a 'feel good'.  That's all.  I am disappointed that candidate Obama did not take a stand.  But then, I am a realist.  I expect to be disappointed by many things that President Obama will do, or not do.  But I look forward with a completely positive attitude to what he can and will do that serves the country once he is in office.  His support of this one compromise will not stand in the way of him becoming President.  What will are those who points fingers with a happy cry of "See, he's not your progressive messiah, foolish bot-people!"  What will stand in the way of Obama becoming President is when those people are Democrats, and I see no reason to be polite or gentle in pointing  out the insult they lay upon me, our candidate and, of course, the worst insult they could level of all ... "President John McCain".

This election is about Change.  And the biggest change should be this:  no more tepid Democratic gotchas, and no more tepid support.  There will be many people who favor a President Obama, but he makes them nervous.  He's a little too dark, a little unknown, a little too seductive to others.  The American impulse will be to run home to momma, or in this case, the old white guy.  It will take commitment and confidence on the part of Democrats to convince these people that change can be good; it can be healthy; it is what our nation is and truly was all about.  A Democratic President can help move this country beyond the failures of BushCo.  This is our election to lose.  I say, let's not do that.  

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Tepid | 53 comments
Those of us who lived through Clinton ... (2.50 / 4)
We know all about not getting everything you want. It's a question of getting anything you want from a centrist-to-rightist Democrat. (Remember, it was Clinton who wanted to privatize Social Security - a long-held right wing goal.) What we are looking for now is for signs that Obama is a DLC-Clintonish-rightish candidate who is carrying the Democratic banner as a means of keeping liberal reforms off the agenda. Early signs are that he is.

What's the point of electing a Democrat if all you get is compromise?


Strawman (2.00 / 2)
if all you get

Wrong.


[ Parent ]
Nah - you're wrong on this one ... (3.00 / 1)
I can think of but one issue where Democrats stood firm these past 7.5 years: Social Security. That may be big, but it ain't enough, and Obama now says it needs to be fixed. Bar the door.

Their performance on FISA was truly disgraceful. It may be just one thing, but like NAFTA, it is a very big thing, and they sold us out big.

I want to believe in Obama but he's got two strikes now. And it has happened so quickly. We need citizen initiative, and citizens will have to fight Democrats and Republicans alike in the coming years to force meaningful change.


[ Parent ]
Yeah (2.62 / 8)
I mean, why would you apologize for calling someone a "piece of filth," right?  

Uprated (4.00 / 1)
Sheesh, let's watch the 0's, shall we?

[ Parent ]
I don't know who 'nullman' is (3.50 / 2)
but nullman also hasn't given a rating above a 1 at any point in recent history.  

[ Parent ]
Looks like Rich... (0.00 / 0)
...is out there wreaking revenge for all the mean things we said about Republicans.

[ Parent ]
Actually, Anna (2.33 / 3)
That alone is the one thing I will apologize for.  It was over the line, and I admit it.  I will point out this fact, however.  I wrote that after you downrated me, an act of incredible hypocrisy, in my view.  That doesn't excuse the severity of the insult, and for that, I am sorry.

[ Parent ]
Have to agree (3.50 / 2)
about immunity. The idea that telcos were ever going to be sued out of existence over this was always just a fantasy. Yes it would be nice if it wasn't just handed to them  by Congress, but I'm not terribly upset about it.

Love the irony, Jay. (3.00 / 3)
By the way, I really enjoy how "we want to change how we talk and think about politics."  Because really?  Do we?  

I, and a lot of the women I talk to who read this site but don't post here, just see the same old bullshit that's been going on for literally millenia whenever women raise their voices about anything.  Shouted down, insulted, demeaned, put in our place.  

Seriously, give me a break.  I don't think anything anyone has ever said here has infuriated me more than that comment.  


Really? (2.00 / 3)
You're telling me that a meaningless, though obviously foul,  insult was the worst you've encountered here?  Even worse than the sexism?  Or are you telling me what I've believed you to be saying since first you posted here; that disagreement is attack and disagreement with you is sexism? I thought that was one of my lesser insults, to be honest.  It was actually beneath me, and for that I am ashamed.  It was foul, but had little to do with the narrative, other than to piss you off (a great success, obviously.)  But it really had no weight.  Insufferable git, on the other hand, is looking more like a descriptor every minute.

Playing nice when someone punches you in the face and then cries that you need to play nice is exactly the political discussion we've been having since 1979.  Funny thing; we've been losing since 1980.  Coincidence?  Hardly.  Hillary Clinton first says exactly what was on the mind of every leftist and Democrat in 1997, that there is a VRWC.  We all applauded, and she became reviled for speaking the truth.  Fast forward a decade and she accepts money from Rupert Murdoch and sits down for pleasant conversation with Richard Melon Schaife.  Does this piss you off?  Nope.  But holy cow, some guy on a website levels an insult at you, after you've just called him an ignorant tool and mindless slave to his choice, and boy-howdy, you are the picture of fury.  Is that about right?

No Anna.  Changing the political discussion does not mean everyone having sympathy for your pet issue, while you ponce around pretending you know their minds and issues.  That's precisely what we've been doing, and it doesn't work.  It's a real quick road to failure.  So yeah, if I've made you furious, then good.  Welcome to the war zone.  We can keep insulting each other as you demand your rights as a special snowflake, or we can win.  Your choice, of course.


[ Parent ]
Nope (2.00 / 2)
Not going to have this discussion with you.  

[ Parent ]
Special Snowflake it is ... n/t (2.00 / 1)


[ Parent ]
sorry... (0.00 / 0)
...if you saw that as personal slight. I'm not defending Wulfgar's tone or means of talking about politics, but Obama's. I think Wulfgar's points about Kerry are debatable, but there's no doubt that many of us have been trying to push the Democratic party into picking new narratives, and that Obama has been successful at it...

[ Parent ]
I really have a problem (4.00 / 1)
with a lot of Obama's narratives.  For example, I laughed when I read about the literal roomful of people that Obama thinks a woman should consult before seeking an abortion (including a clergy member and the father of the child - great, but there are a lot of instances where that wouldn't be advisable).  He also suggested that women should spend a lot of time weighing the moral gravity of the decision, as though that doesn't already happen.    

I don't see this as a helpful narrative for progressives on that particular topic.  I see it as pretty dismissive of women facing that particular decision.  


[ Parent ]
hm... (0.00 / 0)
We may not all agree on every "new" narrative. But the point here is that the Sen. is trying to build a bigger tent for the narrative. Note that it still preserves choice, while respecting those that are uneasy with the idea of abortion.

Still on this particular issue, I do prefer Sen. Clinton's stance.


[ Parent ]
To be blunt Anna... (2.67 / 3)
Before I move on th comment on the meat of Wulfgar's points, I want to address something: the victim routine (complete with the song and dance) has at last gotten so old that I can not really take it anymore. You are doing a disservice to women when you make the claims like

I, and a lot of the women I talk to who read this site but don't post here, just see the same old bullshit that's been going on for literally millenia whenever women raise their voices about anything.

There are plenty of women in the so called 'blogosphere' that are treated with complete respect. There are plenty of men in the blogosphere that get a much harder time than you do. There is a reason that causes people react to you in the way they do: you take pot shots and then defend yourself with the old 'people are picking on me because I am a woman' routine. I have watched Wulfgar over the years and I know that the routes out half-baked arguments and idiocy where he finds them. He is gender neutral and stance neutral in that respect. Ask Andy Hammond.

Moreover, just as you deserve a voice, so does Wulfgar, I take your comment to Jay as both a slap in the face to Jay for facilitating this discussion.


[ Parent ]
I'm really not going to have this discussion. (3.00 / 1)
I think people are picking on me because I once supported a different candidate who was unpopular with many of the posters here and people who are here to throw around insults associate me very strongly with that candidate.  The fact that I am also the only identifiably female poster here makes it that much easier to dismiss what I say.  You called me bitter, remember?  Do you seriously think that's a completely unbiased term to use?  

You can have the last word if you want.    


[ Parent ]
Picking on you (4.00 / 1)
Your response here and in the original post it references wasn't about "people picking on" you, it was about me picking on you.  And you will be hard pressed to find anyone here or elsewhere who has done as good a job of defending you and your position as I have.  Perhaps Mathello; and Jay has done a fine job as well.

Regardless, you claim dismissal when in fact you face engagement, and refuse to respond.  Do you think that the Republicans will offer you such niceties?  Don't dream.  I want to fight beside you.  Quit insisting that I fight with you.

Is this the last word?


[ Parent ]
Thanks (3.00 / 1)
For saying exactly what I've meant to post today, but have yet had the time.  

[ Parent ]
I don't agree (4.00 / 1)
For some reason, Anna's gotten some really toxic comments thrown at her. Yeah, she p*sses people off...but I do think there's an element of sexism in how people react.

And she is right about folks' opinion about this and every blog. I've talked with 'em.

A quick, reasoned response should be enough response to a comment that's as weak and biased as some claim Anna's comments are. But there are folks who seem to need to add some gratuitious and vituperative shot at her, personally.

I don't want to eliminate the conversations, just try to direct people to stick to ideas and arguments.

As for a "slap in the face," I didn't take it that way, although I appreciate your defense. I am trying to facilitate discussion, and that does mean giving folks the opportunity to express their ideas.


[ Parent ]
Jay (4.00 / 1)
I can post at least a hundred worse comments that have been thrown at me.  Yup, she pisses people off, and there really is an element of sexism in some of those comments.  But your defense goes too far when you claim that responses to her should be of a particular idiom, as opposed to those offered others.  Kindly keep in mind that her vitriol is no longer contained to the comments, but stands on the front page as representative of Left in the West.  She is held to a higher standard than your average troll because she is promoted to the position ... by you.

Anna is not a troll, but she has a helluva lot to learn concerning those who might think her wrong on points.  We are not all sexist.  We are not all brainwashed robots standing against her hopes.  And most importantly, we don't have any imperative to support her attacks against our beliefs.  What was it that Hillary said?  Oh, yeah ... "if you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen".


[ Parent ]
I think... (0.00 / 0)
But your defense goes too far when you claim that responses to her should be of a particular idiom, as opposed to those offered others.

I dunno, Wulfgar! I think I have been pretty consistent in calling people out for ad hominem attacks against upstanding members of our community. (Ad hominem attacks on John Sinrud are all right by me.)

I'd ask everyone to stick to reasonable dialog when commenting, not just in response to Anna. That should be the rule. Maybe Matt and I should pen up some guidelines. I don't want to discourage good sparring, but everybody's got to know when it goes too far.


[ Parent ]
Come on Jay (4.00 / 1)
As I said in my comment, I have watched Wulfgar for years and seen that he does not pull punches. Ask racists Mike Harris and Eric Coobs or R-Tard Andy Hammond. None of them use the defense "He is only attacking me because I am a man."

Would you really suggest that he should pull punches with Anna because she is a female.

Maybe some peoples comments are motivated by sexism, I dont know, but I do know that Wulfgar is not motivated by sexism. There is nothing more infuriating than when one chooses to make an argument but resorts to cries of misogyny when those arguments are challenged.  


[ Parent ]
uh... (0.00 / 0)
I didn't suggest Wulfie should pull punches because she's a female, I said he -- and everyone -- should avoid needless personal attacks on members of our blog community. H*ll, Wulfgar even admitted he crossed the line.

I did say Anna's attracting comments in part because of sexism, but I didn't name anybody in particular, or any comments in particular. In fact -- and you can dredge the comments -- I've long credited Wulfgar for being one of the first to raise the issue of sexism around Sen. Clinton's campaign -- and it started when he called me out.

But online sexism is a problem. And I'm wondering how to lessen the toxicity of LiTW comment sections and get more good conversations flowing. It's actually been bugging me for awhile, and the maelstrom around Anna has just brought it to the fore.

I'm not perfect. I don't know the answer. I'm trying to treat everyone fairly here.

The comments in Netroots seem fairly civil in comparison -- ditto with the b'birds. Why? What do you guys do?


[ Parent ]
Jay, (0.00 / 0)
the problems don't always start with the comment section. Anna's article on Obama and FISA was nothing less than a direct attack on "delusional" Obama supporters--here and elsewhere. God help me if I ever had labeled a Clinton supporter here as "delusional" or some other equally derogatory term.

Then top that off with an assertion that the blogarrhea around Obama and FISA was "the most sane discussion I've seen of our nominee on the progressive blogosphere," well, then she's painted herself into a corner that she's going to have to defend, because the readers around here are way smarter than that.

And so we argue about how we treat each other and argue about our limited perspectives on issues, while the real details of FISA remain untouched. Going after Obama had no relevance about the FISA issue, as it pertained to the bill coming out of the House, and how Pelosi, Hoyer, blue dogs et al. got the bill written and passed. The point that needs to be hammered home, is that FISA is just a start with the development of the "National Surveillance State" that we all will be living under in the 21st century.

The whole FISA issue is so far beyond the single immunity point, that the whole discussion serves only to mask what is really happening with FISA. I've spent hours studying the issue this week, and still feel like I've got a long ways to go before I fully understand it. We should be illuminating the issue--not beating up Obama and his supporters.

It was a cheap shot, and if Anna didn't realize that what she was doing was going to generate some flak, well then, she needs to write some more stuff like that, and learn her lessons. If I'm going to write a diary that knowingly is going to invite attacks (which I've done), well then I prepare myself for the fallout in the comment section and act accordingly.

There's some hard-nosed commenting here, no doubt. Toxicity, though, is a stretch. I've seen far worse out there. If we obviously cross a line (racist and/or sexist) and get called out on it, and back off, then we've all learned something.

But there's just something icky about trying to define where PC is at a place like LitW. It dilutes the intensity and reach of conversations. I'd hate to see this place become just another LCD (least common denominator) discussion group: speaingk only till the thinnest skin among us cries wolf.


[ Parent ]
good point (0.00 / 0)
I agree.

Can we expect a post on this?

Greenwald knows this topic like the back of his hand. Have you seen what he's written yet?

By all means, let's start a discussion on FISA! And I'm with you on the bill's odiousness -- not just the telecomm amnesty. Methinks all the bluster on amnesty just masks the real problem with the bill.

That said, I was disappointed Obama went there. I think it's a poor tactical decision. I think he deserves some sh*t, and to learn he can't take us for granted.


[ Parent ]
Like you're going to vote for someone else? (4.00 / 1)
He's got you now, and can pretty well do as he damned well pleases and you can't do a damned thing about it because you've already made it clear you're going to vote for him no matter what, which is what Wulfgar said too. Seems we've traveled this route before. You're powerless. You insist on being so, somehow framing it as smart politics.

It's an interesting dynamic - liberals obviously know nothing about bargaining and make it clear at the outset that they are easy. What's even more intriguing is the words used - Obama is "refreshingly honest", FISA is just one issue, etc. These are the words of denial.  


[ Parent ]
Well... (4.00 / 1)
There is a difference between enforcing rules of civility and complete PC. Spirited discussion can take place without hate speech. Everyone deserves a voice, but they also have to be able to take some flak if they get it wrong.

[ Parent ]
Fair enough... (4.00 / 1)
What do we do? We have rules. That was the fundamental reason we started Montana Netroots. The discussion at blogs  (including this one) became extremely toxic during the last election and did not foster an environment for productive discussion. See:


1. No racists, bigoted or hate speech allowed. Results in instant banning. No warnings.

--This rule has only been applied once, and it was effective. Sexist remarks are hate speech. If Anna has had real sexist remarks leveled at her, then it should NOT be tolerated.

2. No exposing a person's real life persona.

3. If you must attack, attack the argument, not the person.

--I have issued several warnings on this one, and each time the people came back and behaved well.

4. Discuss the arguments on their merits without ascribing motivations as a way to discredit the argument.

--This one is more difficult, but I think it is the one that has been bothering me here. Maybe there have been sexist comments here, I have not seen them. I have seen arguments discredited by calls of sexism though.

Rules are good. It would be awesome to allow free anarchy, but people need to grow up first.


[ Parent ]
duh (0.00 / 0)
I've read those a dozen times.

Thanks for the reminder about your policy. I think I need to get together with Matt and institute a similar policy...


[ Parent ]
BTW (0.00 / 0)
Due to the nature of this comment thread, I'd better clarify that the "duh" was aimed at myself for forgetting your policy...

[ Parent ]
lol (4.00 / 1)
I am not thin skinned, but I got it anyway ;)

[ Parent ]
Uh (3.33 / 3)
Wulfgar has constructed one explanation for why the Democrats lost in 2004; I suggest an alternative. The reason we lost was the Democrats and John Kerry were so afraid that they'd get outflanked on security issues that they caved on every important decision.

In the end, I suspect Kerry was much more wounded by the accusation that he was a flip-flopper, and by extension, weak personally, than he was by accusations that he would be weak on security. My fear is that Obama is starting to walk down the same road in pursuit of these illusory voters who want to support him, but demand that he give telcos immunity.

The revisionism going about immunity is fascinating, too. Suddenly, it's become a "fantasy" to think that American corporations be held liable for criminal activity and civil damages. Why? The Senate has the power to block this; a Senator to block this.

The way to keep young voters and the Americans sickened by the excesses of the Bush Administration excited about Obama is for him to stay true to the message that has gotten him to this point.

How can it be pragmatic to follow the same game plan that has cost Democrats the presidency over and over again?


Pogie, that's a nice explanation. (2.00 / 2)
But it doesn't fit the exit polling or after election study.  According to those things, Kerry lost because people believed the Swift Boaters just enough to think he wouldn't keep them safe compared to Captain Crotchsuit.  I kindly request you show me what "important decisions" Kerry actually caved on.  I don't remember much of any.

I do agree that the flip-flopper thing gained traction and hurt the Kerry campaign.  But I would contend, still, that the damage came from Democrats and our weak confidence in our own candidate.  Expecting the campaign to magically whip up an unbeatable soup of awesome will get us a loser every single time.

We are Democrats.  We believe that the power doesn't come from  our totally unbelievably incredible unbeatable leaders.  That's the Republican's gig.  We believe that we imbue our leaders with the power to serve the people.  They serve at our will.  But the point is, they serve.  We gotta get 'em in office before that's even possible, and demanding pander is not the way to do that.

I agree that Obama needs to stay true to message.  Right now, I'm vastly more concerned about him shunning the Muslim community than I am about him helping Telcos to get a one time pass on stupid behavior.  (Let's be clear, the Telco immunity isn't to save them; it's to save the administration from prosecution after they flee the White House.)  Maybe Obama can stay true, maybe he won't and we will have Bush's  third term.  One thing I can guarantee is that requiring Obama to carry the water of our vengeance in exchange for our vote will lose for us all.    


[ Parent ]
Why Did Kerry Lose? (3.50 / 2)
Fear mattered, but a sense of Kerry's inconsistency mattered as much, if not more:

When asked for reasons to not support Kerry, 36 percent of those polled responded, "flip-flopping on issues," whereas 32 percent opined their justification for not supporting Bush was "Iraq and foreign policy."  


[ Parent ]
Among Republicans (2.00 / 2)
Most of the 'flip-flop' response was among Republicans.  Independents and cross-over Dems mostly pointed to weakness in the 'war on terra'.  This is where Democrats could have used a confident response at the community level.

[ Parent ]
But... (2.50 / 2)
Here's what I don't get. What voting group does he gain with this decision?

I understand the need to be pragmatic to win elections; I just need someone to explain how this could possibly benefit Obama. The fallout from switching his position will certainly outweigh any benefits.

It's not like the Republicans aren't going to say he's weak on national security because of this vote. Now they can say that he is weak on national security and can't be trusted. Neither of those things is true, but truth isn't exactly what GOP presidential politics is about.


being a centrist... (2.00 / 1)
...doesn't always apply to the middle of a group, or between liberal and conservative. I guess you could call this a stance that signals to the monied powers he isn't going to ditch them...

...assuming, of course, that telecomm immunity is about protecting telecomms. I'd dredge up the link, but it was much speculated that amnesty was really for the gov't, because Bush et al. signed a deal with the telecomms that the feds would pay if the telecomms were sued over their program.

Could be some of these folks are fighting to save themselves a few hundred million bucks of govt money - others no doubt don't want the scrutiny of their involvement revealed if cases were to go to court.

So centrist here could mean a number of different things.


[ Parent ]
and another thing! (0.00 / 0)
You know, I do agree tho, that the reversals Obama has taken after the general have been odd. I mean...NAFTA??? That's not exactly going to endear him to the blue collar folks of Pennsylvania and Ohio, is it?

[ Parent ]
One of my major compaints... (3.00 / 3)
with the Bush administration has been the hubris with which it has went about its business. It has been very clear since the beginning that if Bush was representing anyone outside of big business, it was only his core. We do not need another president that represents only the people and entities that elected them. Were we to elect a real progressive, I would still want one that is able to build consensus by reaching across the aisle every once in a while. The last thing that I want to hear is 'See XXX would have done better' with each decision that we do not agree whole heartedly with.

Just to consider another angle ... (3.00 / 1)
Many of us believe that Kerry won - I personally think he may have gotten as much as 53% of the vote, but that election, like the one in 2000, was stolen.

There. I spoketh the unspeakable.  


the unspeakable? (0.00 / 0)
c'mon, man. there are blogs devoted to this theory. and didn't a kennedy pen a feature-length article in a mainstream magazine on this topic?

[ Parent ]
It's one of those things ... (3.00 / 1)
Until the Democrats grow a pair, nothing will be done.  

[ Parent ]
A pox on your house (3.00 / 1)
for speaking such a way. Keep the truth hidden deep inside Mark. Keep it locked away...

[ Parent ]
Understand that in politics ... (3.00 / 1)
We talk about everything except the things that are painfully obvious. I look forward to reading your thoughts on this subject sometime, as you've often written about it. Right?

[ Parent ]
I assume (0.00 / 0)
most of us have written about it.

Then the whole hysteria around the NH primary dulled it somewhat...

Still, Shane, if I recall, has been a constant advocate for the paper ballot.

Not sure why you want to pick this fight.


[ Parent ]
Can't I Ever Joke? (4.00 / 1)
Jay is right, I have written on paper ballots many times, here is one such example.


This seems pretty basic to me: fair elections are paramount to a democracy's security. Even if election fraud exists only in the minds of fringe alarmists, the mere implication that elections are not fair can cause people to lose faith in the system. If you don't believe that your vote counts, why cast it? Participation is the cornerstone of Democracy.

I was only poking fun at you saying "There. I spoketh the unspeakable."


[ Parent ]
"Fringe Alarmists" (0.00 / 0)
Hardy har - that's funny - the condescending putdown when we try to put up very real warnings that our election system is not secure. In many states right now voters cast votes without paper bring the final source for vote count. Audit is not possible. When exit polls differ significantly from the posted results, we are told to doubt the exit polls. Democrats, per usual, refuse to address the issue.

I address this issue, Jay, because there is no sense handwringing over why Kerry lost if the jackass actually won.

By the way, New Hampshire was never properly audited. The chain of possession on the ballots was fraught with malfeasance, making a recount pointless. You're easily mollified.


[ Parent ]
The free elections with which we are so enamoured (0.00 / 0)
have always depended less on the people who cast ballots than on the people who counted them.
To me--it is the willing surrender of power in the face of such underwhelming evidence which seems so remarkable...  

[ Parent ]
For the love of dog (0.00 / 0)
Geesh Mark. What I said was "Even if election fraud exists only in the minds of fringe alarmists". The truth be known, I believe that there the last two elections were wrought with fraud and incompetence. The point that I was making was that even if one did not believe that, there is still no valid reason to oppose securing the system given what was at stake.

Some of us see things for what they are occasionally and if you took a few seconds off from ankle biting you might notice this. Honestly, it pisses me off how you always come out blindly swinging with such earnest that you fail to notice that you are fighting with someone who agrees with you. It would make you a much more effective person if you took a few seconds to actually read what people wrote instead of presupposing that you know their position.


[ Parent ]
I support change from the past but don't see Obama doing that (4.00 / 1)
I voted for Obama in CT's Feb. 5 primary because he was the lesser of 2 evils for me.  I was an "Anybody but Clinton/DLC and Republican" voter.  I was not inspired by ANY of the Dem Prez candidates this year.

I see Obama as Bill Clinton ver 2.0, a Bill Clinton who knows how to keep his pant zipper shut in front of female interns, but a Bill Clinton who is really Republican-lite.

Obama's current position on the FISA bill is definitely Clintonesque -- use rhetoric to try to hypnotize the Left that you oppose it but you won't use your status as Dem Prez nominee to help kill a bill that attacks all American's 4th Amendment right.

Larkspur


Kerry (4.00 / 1)
I think Osama bin Laden's "endorsement" did the trick.  That and various Ohio shenanigans.  And the mainstream press doesn't like him personally.  In short, stuff largely beyond Kerry's control.

Coming up, we have to worry about (a) the mainstream press's blatant bias towards McCain personally; (b) Osama making another appearance; (c) sufficient provocation to make war with Iran plausible; (d) vanity on our side (and yes, I'm looking straight at 100,000 Floridians who didn't think there was enough difference between Al Gore and George Bush to matter); and (e) Obama going off-narrative.  Only the last is in his control.  I expect that his FISA position -- which I do not support -- is this sort of thing.  There aren't really any votes to be won with opposition to spying becoming a core part of the narrative (especially in a week when he's come out in favor of legal rights for members of Al Qaeda), there are obvious downsides to the position.  


Confirm thy soul in self control, thy liberty in law.


Tepid | 53 comments
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