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Matt Singer works for Forward Montana. He also is a partner in DP Productions, a small, Montana-based T-Shirt company.


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Baucus listening tour making headlines

by: Jay Stevens

Fri May 29, 2009 at 11:01:45 AM MDT


A couple of cool articles on Max Baucus health insurance listening tour appeared in Montana media today. There's the piece by Vince Devlin in the Missoulian about pesky Montanans who want single-payer health care on the table in the discussion on health care reform. John Adams has a similar report on how single-payer advocates across the state are giving Baucus an earful:

"Max is really making me mad now because he's not really trying to change the system, he's just trying to tweak it," said a Helena business owner who drove over for the meeting. "If Max really wants to leave a monumental legacy to show for all of his years in the Senate, then he's going to have to find the courage to tear down (the current system)."

But make no doubt about it. Single-payer health care is off the table. While a majority of Americans would prefer universal, nationalized health care, a bill supporting single-payer health care can't even get off the ground in the House. And that's the more progressive body, by far. Whether Baucus is responsible for that fact, or he's just pragmatic in scripting reform that doesn't consider single-payer health care is moot.

Still it's good to see the anger and mobilization of Montanans. While it's possible the listening tour was intended as a way to placate Montana voters, it's quickly turning into a daily news story about how Congressional health care reform is falling far short of what everyday Americans want. In short, it's one big black eye for the Baucus health care plan.

Again, the real issue at hand is whether there's a robust public insurance option in the proposed health care reform. And I can't help but think that this increasing pressure is making the inclusion of a public option politically mandatory. Details of the health reform plan Ted Kennedy is crafting on the sly  are surfacing, and it apparently includes a very strong public option, including opening up Medicare to families of four earning $110K or less. And it looks as if there's going to be a tussle between Baucus and Kennedy in the Senate over the direction of health care, which will be a lot of fun to watch.

A Billings Gazette article reminded us there are other issues involved in health care reform:

That goes especially for health insurance plans, which can be so confusing that consumers avoid making potentially beneficial coverage changes because they don't understand their policies.

"I quit selling (some plans) because I can't explain them," said Webb Mandeville, a Columbus insurance agent....

Several speakers on Thursday complained that the current system is too complicated to be functional. Whatever reform the government implements needs to simplify what already exists, they said.

But not everyone was convinced a government fix could make health care less complex.

That's right. What about the administrative mess our current insurance system creates? It reminds me again of that interview with Princeton health care economist Uwe Reinhardt in which he said that Americans' problem with our health care system isn't the care we receive, but in the way we purchase it. That should be a vital component of any health care reform, but an aspect of health care that doesn't seem to be getting much airtime. Right now, talk about health care reform seems to be concentrating on two things: universal coverage, and reducing costs.  

Jay Stevens :: Baucus listening tour making headlines
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good post jay (0.00 / 0)
i would just caution you about paying too much attention to what the entrenched washington insiders say about the possibility for single payer being on the table....not sure they really know what is going on out there in the rest of the country.

this may be the last straw for the middle class if it is not handled well...and so far baucus's health care hearings have been handled very poorly indeed. if the same geniuses who advised baucus to throw out doctors and nurses are where you are getting your insider information then i would caution you to get a new seismograph. http://4and20blackbirds.wordpr...

United we stand, divided we fall.

power to the polite people!


As always ... (0.00 / 0)
Baucus is merely containing opposition by pretending to "listen". If he doesn't invite them in a room to vent, they go elsewhere. They might even organize! organize! organize!

It's a very basic political trick - the fact that it works so easily on you is distressing. He's not up for reelection for five years, and doesn't really care what anyone here thinks, and you'll vote for him again anyway.

Max needs to be stopped, and Republicans need to be enlisted to help. The best way to do that is to remind them that Max wants to use the IRS to force them to buy private health insurance policies. Republicans love government coercion.


Sorry Jay (0.00 / 0)
but I refuse...and apparently a whole lot of other Americans refuse....to let Obama, Baucus, or any member of Congress, take single payer off the table...

Look, this stuff is important...passing a real good health care plan (not a mediocre, first start plan) will set up the Democrats for 30 years of election wins...getting the private insurance companies out of health care...for the most part... will bring costs down and be vastly more efficient...and getting them out of the health care business will mean guys like Baucus won't be raising $1.5 million from corporate whores each election cycle...at least not the big pharma, HMO, insurance company whores.

As for Kennedy and his plan...yes! It is his committee that should be holding hearings NOT Baucus and the Finance Committee...


Personal note to Mini Baucus. (0.00 / 0)
Dear Mini, why can't we ALL have the same government health insurance that YOU have, Min?  You see, Mini, we want Maxi Care!  In other words, what YOU get!   Now Mini, don't get me wrong.  I will support your half-assed nonsense...........for a price!  If you give me all the money that your recieve from the insurance industry, by God I'll be your biggest cheerleader! AND, I'll be able to afford some quality health insurance. Deal?  If not, you're done next  election, Mini.  

Are you sending copies of this stuff to Mr. Baucus, Doglap? (0.00 / 0)
Or are you just hoping he'll stop on this forum now and then?

[ Parent ]
Yes. (0.00 / 0)
Pardon my Italian, but he no playa the game, he no make'a the rules!  Mini creating health care is kinda like Bush leading us into war, or the Pope advising us on birth control, or Flush Blimpaugh lecturing us on patriotism, family values, marriage, and drug addiction!  Allow me to explain the origins of a term used so widely today.  The term is STFU!, or shut the f*ck up!  It was originated by returning Nam vets who were tired of being looked down on upon returning home.  When someone would demean their service, they  would reply that "if you haven't been there, shut the f*ck up!"  Bush was never in war, the Pope don't screw, and Flush has done nothing in life!  Mini also hasn't "been there".  Mini HAS health insurance.  Mini's NEVER faced a bankrupting medical catastrophe.  Mini no playa the game.  Mini needs to STFU!  Mini's AWOL as surely as Bush was.  He hasn't a clue.  Mini's leading us into a health care Iraq, and it's doomed as surely as Bushy's was!  We need leadership.  Mini ain't up to the task 'cause he hasn't been there.  He should go talk  to Teddy Kennedy.  Ol' Teddy's had an epiphany after his little bout with cancer.  He NOW sees the tremendous value of health care for  all.  Let's face it.  Mini wants us to fail.  To quote Wanda Sykes, I hope that MINI  has the opportunity to experience organ failure!  Nothing like reality to create a little empathy for  others!  Works like a charm!

[ Parent ]
Sending messages to Baucus is a pointless exercise ... (0.00 / 0)
He's not listening, doesn't care.

To be effective, one must join the groups that are openly working against him.  


[ Parent ]
Mini doesn't need to care. (0.00 / 0)
Let's face it.  He's got it made.  But Mini really has nothing to lose by doing the right thing for ONCE in his life.  I wonder, do you suppose that a young Mini would have come out swinging for health care for all? I suspect  so.  Mini was a young turk at one time.  Poor fella. He's gone limp on us. He just doesn't have it any more.  And with the Dems firmly in control  now, we can realistically run a REAL Dem against Mini here in Montana.  Mini, like Cheney, needs to just go away.  He can always get a job as a sheepherder back at the ranch!  

[ Parent ]
I tend to be pulling for the same ends as you and the bookkeeper, (0.00 / 0)
doglap; but I have not yet become aware of the vehicle the two of you have discovered which will remove Jon (whatever you say max) Tester, Max (me too!) Baucus and Barrack (I'm a little over my head here) Obama from the decision-making process.

Organize! strikes me as nearly as vapid a fight song as Yes We Can.
A general revolution is certainly not in the cards at the present time--and I find it rather hard to believe that it is a solution any thinking person would willingly contemplate.
The time has come certainly to shift the weight of our sacred economy off the shoulders of the coolies, peasants, peons, serfs and newly accredited out of workers and third worlders!
But it seems to me we ought to do the shifting before they get to the end of their tether.  For a little while I dared to hope Obama might actually be as clairvoyant as FDR; it is quickly becoming apparent he is nothing more nor less than Clinton-lite...  


[ Parent ]
I'm not interested in fighting him. I'd just like to convince him to quit whoring for the health care industrial complex. (0.00 / 0)
I think unless one is mentally ill or otherwise incapacitated that everyone cares about something and is willing to listen if what one cares about is either being threatened or, conversely, is being promoted or nurtured.

I don't think that either SIEU or Max's Dem allies can hold him accountable, because they are in no position to do that having signed on to Max's program. They are functionally part of his program, not a means of accountability.

So that leaves who, institutionally, to hold Max accountable?

Unorganized voters who want to quit being ripped off on health care. And that means organizing instead of agonizing.


[ Parent ]
~face palm~ (0.00 / 0)
Mark, you still don't get it and likely never will.

To be effective, one must join the groups that are openly working against him.

Right, like the Republican party.  The groups you refer to aren't working against Baucus.  They're not.  They are working against a plan that they think he favors which isn't what they want.  What they're working for is what they do want.  So far Mark, all you've shown is that you are working for ... well, nothing exactly.  What you're working against is a man you don't like who has power you don't want him to have.  Fine.  But kindly don't coattail others with the pretense that they follow your agenda.  Frankly, it appears to be rather the reverse.


[ Parent ]
Isn't that the same comment I heard before? (0.00 / 0)
We have two sets of enemies in office - the Republicans, who want to subsidize private health insurance and don't want single payer, and the Democrats, who want to subsidize private health insurance and don't want single payer. Your strategic mistake is to presume that there are meaningful differences. You think you can get something from the Democrats. You're nuts.

That's how the triangulation game is played - Republicans advance the agenda, Democrats contain the opposition. Some of us are smart enough not to play by the rules. (We are supposed to go to "listening" meetings and vent - that is designed to keep us from doing anything effective.)

Apparently you are too smart to be fooled, right, Numbnuts? Think again.

There are enough people for single payer, and enough Republicans who are opposed to being forced by Baucus and the IRS to buy private health insurance policies that we should be able to stop anything from passing. That's the only objective right now - avoid a Baucus-led disaster - if his plan passes, it, like Medicare D, will not be undone.

The stakes are very high. Get on the right side.  


[ Parent ]
No Mark. (0.00 / 0)
You apparently heard nothing except the stupid voices in your own fucking head.  Seek failure if you wish.  I, supported by the vast majority of Americans, don't.  

[ Parent ]
Way back when you could still tell a Democrat (0.00 / 0)
from a Republican, I went to get a shave and a haircut every day.  
The reportage I received in the barberchair seemed more reliable than what I'm getting in these most deliberately sophisticated blogs.
I began to wear a beard and longer hair when I began to be uncomfortable around all those razors. And I'm still hirsute due to the chasm of hatred which has replaced those ideological differences we used to have.
 

YOU STILL HAVE HAIR, JEDI???? (0.00 / 0)
You lucky bastard!  I'm hopin' single payer covers rogaine and viagra!  It'll take me right  back to the sixties and ideological  purity!

[ Parent ]
I tried, during the summer of love, to (0.00 / 0)
take part in the sexual revolution.  
It wasn't all that much different for me than it had been in the fifties.  
Everybody told me I was in the right place and seemed adequately well presented; but they wouldn't trust anyone over thirty!
That ship has sailed, certainly; but I still have enough hair for half a dozen hippies...

[ Parent ]
Really? (4.00 / 1)
The reportage I received in the barberchair seemed more reliable than what I'm getting in these most deliberately sophisticated blogs.

Then perhaps you shouldn't read and comment at these blogs. don't you think?


[ Parent ]
That would fit well with your rather selective ideology. (0.00 / 0)
Which seems exemplified by your STFU directive...

[ Parent ]
Jed, you know nothing of my ideology (0.00 / 0)
Save that I'd rather not suffer idiots like yourself.

[ Parent ]
You post on blogs so that people will know nothing of your ideology? (0.00 / 0)
Hmmm...

Reading posters on this blog and others usually gives me some insight into peoples ideology. For instance, Problembear over at 4&20 Blackbirds holds the ideology that health care should be a right and not a privilege. I also have learned from reading that PB supports a single payer system. I don't know that I've ever met Problembear or not, but I know something of his/her ideology.

Yet after reading your posts for a while now you assert that Jed knows nothing of your ideology? (excepting that you don't suffer idiots like Jed. Which raises the question; which types of idiots do you suffer, if not the ones like Jed? I mean if it's not a secret.) That doesn't make a lot of sense to me. One would think a quality blog writer would impart a goodly amount of their ideology. Take Jay for another example. I think he imparts a lot of his ideology in his blogging. It's not like he's hiding it.

You really think you don't impart some of your ideology in your writing? And that Jed couldn't pick that up from reading?


[ Parent ]
Pay attention (0.00 / 0)
which types of idiots do you suffer

None.  You did notice the comma in appropriate position, didn't you?  Apparently not.

One would think a quality blog writer would impart a goodly amount of their ideology.

One would if one weren't so lazy as to assume that I'm a poster at this blog.  I'm not.  I'm a commenter here.  Just like you.  What I have written about the topic at hand shows clearly that I favor single payer but that I believe it to be a non-starter.  What I seek and support is a public option that will bury the insurance industry over time, as they find themselves uncompetitive.  IF one were paying attention without personal agenda, one would indeed pick up on that.

However, jed has an agenda.  He is a frustrated marxist revolutionary.  And so he attacks any that don't see his favored path as viable.  Mark is just some kind of an egoist who wants to justify his support of G.W Bush by way of Nader.  He desires failure.  Regardless, they both use Ad Hominem to seek importance against men that I consider my friends.  I find that unacceptable.  If my comments have left that unclear, then I suggest you review your reading habits.


[ Parent ]
Wulfie is probably correct. (0.00 / 1)
Ol' jed sees him (wulfie) as a defensive little guy living in his mom's basement--getting bombed on rotgut vodka as he seethes about morons who will not accept the gradualist philosophy so attractive to DLC acolytes like himself:

They are very people I used to refer to as Reagan Democrats--until so many of them objected.
They felt I was unfair to call them that; just because it was Reagan who made Nixon's Southern Strategy acceptable to corporate America.  
And then it was Tsongas, Clinton and Lieberman who convinced so many Democrats to adopt Reaganism as the New Deomocratic strategy.

I suspect as far as wulfie and his pals are concerned, people not of middle class calibre, are off their radar.  


[ Parent ]
Which means ... (4.00 / 1)
Ol' jed sees him (wulfie) as a defensive little guy living in his mom's basement--getting bombed on rotgut vodka as he seethes about morons who will not accept the gradualist philosophy so attractive to DLC acolytes like himself:

Jed ignores every single declared and known reality that is presented to him.  In short, jed is a fucking moron.


[ Parent ]
Here's where you go haywire ... (0.00 / 0)
What I seek and support is a public option that will bury the insurance industry over time, as they find themselves uncompetitive.

That is the trap door that you're standing on, Baucus holding the lever. Those were my sentiments exactly until I realized that Baucus is being cagey about it, saying he favors it but not defining it. That's the trap.

I'm betting that Baucus and the insurance industry agree on a public option as follows: First, the insurance people look you over, and see if you are a profitable client, just like they do now. If you are, you are forced to buy a private policy (subsidized by government, if necessary). If you are not potentially profitable, you are turned over to the government.

The insurance industry will cherry-pick, just like now and has the force of government, along with subsidy behind them. All non-profitable people are dumped into government programs. Unless you are poor, you will be forced to pay very high premiums for that coverage, as you will be pooled with sick people.

It's MCHA writ large. That will not "bury the insurance industry over time... - it will write them into our future in perpetuity.  


[ Parent ]
You may be right, Mark (4.00 / 1)
You may have exactly put your finger on Max's nefarious and diabolical plan.  But that isn't the issue that I have with you.

1)  You don't have secret knowledge that the rest of us are incapable or seeing or considering. By now, anybody that has payed attention is aware of the pitfalls in trusting Max or the insurance industry as a whole.  Your assumption throughout has been that nobody is paying attention, save yourself and maybe jed.  You're flat out wrong.  (Here's something I bet you don't know, Mark.  I was a licensed insurance salesman, for both health and life, back in '85-'86.  I gave it up, rather quickly, because I couldn't stomach working in such a corrupt field.  So as you gleefully waffle between thinking others clueless and thinking they've sold their souls, you might want to keep in mind that that's your assumption, and hardly the truth.)

2)  Max isn't the boogeyman you paint him to be.  Merely pointing that fact out to you is received as a sign of support for Senator Baucus.  It isn't.  It's simply pointing out that you're getting delusional ion affording him almost otherworldly power.  Yup, he could screw us over, he surely could.  But if he does, then he won't have done it alone.  And whatever plan he comes up with still have to be agreed on by a majority of a 100, signed off on by the House, and signed by the President.  Your focus on Max is getting almost creepy.

3)  My "sentiments" are just that, as are those of the writers of this website.  But there remains a huge gulf between sentiment and an action plan.  You recognize that difference for yourself, but deny that recognition for others.  That's a failing on your part, not theirs.

4)  You've given up the fight.  Though likely unfair of me, I think you gave it up long before it ever really began.  You are likely correct that no plan is better than a bad plan.  However, you've already assumed that a bad plan is all that's on the table.  That's not true as evidenced by the very organizations you've urged people to support.  It's when you started attacking others for not signing on to your 'plan o' fail', that's when I went on the offensive against you.

You have, by your own admission, changed your view and mind concerning the topic of health care reform.  Yet you refuse to acknowledge that others even have the capacity to do so, based mostly on your own faulty assumptions of where they began this debate.  I don't need to use any fancy words to point out that that's not good.  It's not helpful, and frankly as irritating as all get out.  No one, and I mean that sincerely, cares if you speak your peace.  Many of us actually appreciate the view.  But would you, please for the love of God, quit speaking for the minds and actions of others.  Put simply, you're not qualified to do so.


[ Parent ]
None of this would be on the table ... (0.00 / 0)
We would not be having this discussion were there not a couple of us (Steve W being one) who see what is happening with a clear head. This idea that you're promoting that Democrats are following Max with eyes and ears open is a-historical. Were you even alive in the 1990's?

Without Steve and I you would not be pissed off, you'd be debating the merits of the public option not even knowing what it is. You've already done this. You said "What I seek and support is a public option that will bury the insurance industry over time, as they find themselves uncompetitive."

Eyes wide shut, buddy. That's where the game is being played - against you. Max is going to shove that public option down your throat.

Do you even know what Medicare D is? If you did you would see how Max took leadership on an issue with wide public support and turned it into a subsidy for the pharmaceutical companies. Now you say " Max isn't the boogeyman you paint him to be. Again, do you even know what Medicare D is?

Anyway, here's my plan:

1) Stop Max. He's not evil. He is merely a power player who works for the other side as he assumes leadership on this side. That's politics. That's how it is done. Triangulation. Bill Clinton did not invent it. Dick Morris merely named it.

2) After this plan dies, go for the laboratory approach. Single payer has passed in CA - Arnold vetoed it twice. It will pass again. As with Canada and Saskatchewan, if successful there, it will spread, and that will be the end of private health insurance.  


[ Parent ]
That's not a bad plan Mark. In fact it's probably the best plan single payer advocates have. (0.00 / 0)
Sanders bill would facilitate that by allowing states to use federal health care dollars for their single payer pool.

It's basically an off the shelf reintroduction of the Wellstone bill.

Anyone wonder why the insurance industry doesn't want to "work with" Sanders?

It's because the Sanders bill will actually  "...bury the insurance industry over time."

Not save it, as the Baucus bill is intended to do.


[ Parent ]
Thank you, Henny Penny (1.00 / 1)
I'll take that under advisement.

We would not be having this discussion were there not a couple of us (Steve W being one) who see what is happening with a clear head.

Again with the insults and baseless accusations.  Yes, Mark, we would be having a discussion about health care reform (though you mistake it for this one) without Steve W and you.  But you're right about this much; we wouldn't be having this discussion of your paranoia and arrogantly anti-social behavior without you.  


[ Parent ]
Heh heh ... Wulfgar called me anti-social ... (0.00 / 0)
Anyone else find that amusing?

And Wulfy, if you actually realized it was triangulation while it was going on, it wouldn't be so effective.  


[ Parent ]
You're so right, Mark (0.00 / 0)
I really have that much power that what I realize or don't can change the fate of millions.

[ Parent ]
well, said, Wulfgar (0.00 / 0)
That about sums it up.

The idea that anyone who doesn't exactly agree with a particular point of view and, therefore, takes the same "action" isn't "clear headed" or whatever is absurd, at best. And, yeah, Mark T's single-note symphony is getting a little irritating.


[ Parent ]
You're right, jaybird. (0.00 / 1)
Let us continue to strive for the kind of mediocrity we have enjoyed under Democrats since 1953...

[ Parent ]
That isn't what he wrote (0.00 / 0)
Jackass.

[ Parent ]
Irritated? (0.00 / 0)
You have no idea what it is like to watch you and Matt waving your palm leaves at Max.  

[ Parent ]
If your delusions are causing you pain ... (0.00 / 0)
perhaps you'd best give them up, Mark.

[ Parent ]
Jed ... (0.00 / 0)
I think he's saying STFU.

[ Parent ]
Actually he is just saying he can't handle the pressure. (0.00 / 1)


[ Parent ]
Actually, jed, (1.00 / 1)
What pressure?  The pressure of being inadequately lectured to by a moron?

I'm saying I personally hope that you fuck off.  I know that your ego won't let you.  But then again, you're old.  One can still hope ...


[ Parent ]
my barber's a great place to get fishing/hunting tips...off-color jokes....but (0.00 / 0)
not so reliable when it comes to politics. cafes are much better barometers of what people think. barber shops are like blogs- occasional useful information but too much soap-boxing.....but like blogs- barbers can be very entertaining....

United we stand, divided we fall.

power to the polite people!


All the good barbers probably have their own blogs now, carcajou... (0.00 / 0)


[ Parent ]
Max has always been what he is now. (0.00 / 0)
Its just that now he is head of an important committee.

(As wulfie has said he is just one of many; but the sad thing is all of them pretty much like Max--just lack-lustre, bought and paid for, apparatchiks.)

But as the bookkeeper has said--only Jon and Max are of our doing.  In Montana, as in other states, our Senators ought to dance with them as brung 'em.  We can piss and moan about Nancy and Harry all we want; but we didn't bring them to dance.

Most Americans were pretty thrilled that since 2006 we have managed to chang the color of our punch--only to find out it still tastes the same.  
(We old wobblies saw years ago if we really wanted to party we'd have to put something more pungent than food-coloring into the punchbowl.)  
The new caterer we hired doesn't seem to have much interest in our kind of good time!--Or maybe he is saving the good stuff till a little later?

I have to admit I do not know who else is within our price range though.  I keep asking around; but I haven't found anybody so far--except for some real low-lifes who want to put in some things we know might make us all really sick..!  


one wonders (0.00 / 0)
with what you would fill your allegorical punch bowl...???

[ Parent ]
Actually, old man (0.00 / 0)
But as the bookkeeper has said--only Jon and Max are of our doing.  In Montana, as in other states, our Senators ought to dance with them as brung 'em.

The one who's been pointing that out for well over two years in this online thingy has been me.  Perhaps I've been spending too much time writing that to your Republicant buddies instead of here.  My bad.  I just figured folks 'round these parts would already know that.

In the December after Jon's election, I asked the question of many folks, online and off:  who will or can challenge Max in a primary?  Imagine that.  No takers.  Now all us fine liberal folk actually had a chance to send a true progressive to DC, a guy nominated by the Republicants, no less.  But nope, 75% of the state said "Max is our guy."  So, whether we like it or not, Max is dancing with the ones as brung him.

Funny, but that is kinda how it works.


[ Parent ]
You've just described the problem with Democrats - (0.00 / 0)
They don't critique other Democrats and give them a free pass becuase of the 'D'.

Why do you get on me when I do the same?


[ Parent ]
When you're staying in your Mom's basement (0.00 / 1)
you have to assert yourself somewhere.

[ Parent ]
max is not worried much about reelection.... (0.00 / 0)
but some of his fellow democratic congress people are...and they are getting more than a little nervous about the reaction from the public regarding health insurers...hence the gentle but firm tug on max's leash that recently came from ted kennedy- making max eat his words and meet with single payer representatives may 5th.

max's own staff are crapping their pants about what just happened at the listening tours so....could get interesting this week.

i know this much. the republicans are dead in the water and drifting toward a waterfall...the only thing that can save them now is if the democrats get real stupid and piss off the american people by going weak on health care reform.

health care is the last straw for the middle class. the rich have what they want already. the poor are treated without being billed. the middle class is the only one taking it in the neck from private insurers. they want real reform or they will look elsewhere for leadership and toss a tow rope to the republicans in 2010. mark my words- there will be hell to pay if the democrats screw this up.
but if they do it right and get the insurance leeches out of our wallets then they can plan on clear sailing for a long time-

mark is wrong about who to keep your eye on - don't worry about the parties- but keep a sharp lookout on the middle class. they are getting edgy.....

United we stand, divided we fall.

power to the polite people!


IT'S THE MONEY, STUPID! (0.00 / 0)
No, I'm not calling you stupid, wolverine. Just trying to make a point. It's all about money.  It  USED to be that we all pretty much had health insurance, and we took it for granted.  But sumthin' started happening about  fiteen years ago.  Health insurance costs went off the charts, if you could even GET it.  Hence, people who had worked and saved their entire lives were suddenly becoming impoverished, bankrupt, and losing everything simply because of medical catastrophes.  And this happened to not just a small number of people.  TONS of folks have bankrupted themselves in just this very fashion. Tons more realize that it could happen to them overnight!  All it takes is one bad diagnosis and you're toast! There is a veritable army of angry people out there ready to confront a big wussy like baucus.  That's why Mini sends his vassals on the "listening tour".  Vassals (rhymes with a**holes) are willing to get lambasted to spare wussy max the ordeal.  It's just the way they are.  You see, the American people  aren't stupid.  Even though they might not understand ALL the arguments, they know enough to know that they're gettin' hosed REAL good by Mini and his industry benefactors.  And this rankles them to no end!  The supposed "richest"  country in the world can't afford measely friggin' HEALTH insurance for its people, yet every  OTHER country in the world can?  Sumthin' real WRONG with this picture, and Mini's right in the middle of it!  If Mini and company had ANY nuts at'all, they'd cut that damned useless "defense" budget in half and start providing what we REALLY need, and it AIN'T another B-whatever bomber!  After all, this is America, home of the brave and the nutless wonders like Mini Barfus!

[ Parent ]
sorry - factual error in my comment... (0.00 / 0)
max has been ordered to eat his words and meet with single payer advocates on june 3 - this wednesday.

the single payer rallies around the state of montana are on june 5 - this friday.

things are coming to a head here folks and the political centrifuge will soon seperate all the elements as events pick up speed...gonna need to pay attention now and get my facts correct. sorry.

United we stand, divided we fall.

power to the polite people!


[ Parent ]
Too much of the Congress is still well to Max's right on reform (0.00 / 0)
Ron Wyden is pushing for a trigger on a public option. Maria Cantwell and Mary Landrieu are currently backing that proposal. Ben Nelson until recently had only straight opposition to a public option.

Jon Tester has only said he is open to a public option and certainly has not committed to one.

Max's job in this process is the job of nearly everyone who wants to get a bill passed: figure out how to pass the bill. If kowtowing to insurance companies gets the bill passed, there will be more kowtowing to insurance companies. If hanging them out to dry gets more votes, they'll get hung out to dry. But the politics of this are far more complicated than Mark T makes out because the whole sixty votes thing is very real in the Senate, because reconciliation is not a fail-safe process.


[ Parent ]
The problem is pretty much the way the bookkeeper says it is; (0.00 / 0)
but the solution is not simply getting organized.
The skinny black yuppie promised a real sea change on this very issue and now he is backing off--or at least away from that promise.

The internet elected him and the Democratic congress.

Perhaps an internet tsunami might convince Democrats at every level; but letters--followed by telephone calls will certainly get the attention of the class of 2010.
It might even wake up the class of 2012..!


[ Parent ]
Wydon's trigger is an attempt to compromise with the left who has put the public option on the table. (0.00 / 0)
and of course, if that (the trigger) gets the votes then a trigger we will get along with compulsory purchase of private insurance which is sure to get the votes. That's not even an "if."

I understand that the Senate is interested in passing anything as long as they can then claim they did something. They of course see this as a PR problem and really aren't that interested in what Americans see as the problem except possibly in an abstract way and as to how it affects their reelection.

As I recall, the Medicare Drug benefit  for some mysterious arcane and completely unknowable reason didn't require 60 votes to pass the Senate. In fact a number of Repos voted against it.

Oh yeah, I remember. The Dems are scared silly of the Repos, but the Repos aren't afraid of the Dems at all.

Both Baucus and Wyden have said that they both want at least 70 votes on anything that passes.

So we know anything that passes will have to be acceptable to millionare Repos, screw people,  and help the richest corporations get richer.

Meanwhile, we are still being ripped off. The politics of that apparently are fairly simple.



[ Parent ]
It's not 60 votes, Matt ... (0.00 / 0)
I just a dumb fooker, I knows. I donna unnastan all the complicated stuff you're doing, like selling us out.

Jesus what arrogance. Anyway, if there were leadership, it would be 51,and not 60. Why is it that Democrats, even when they have power, refuse to use it? Why do you go along with all this nonsense?  

If kowtowing to insurance companies gets the bill passed, there will be more kowtowing to insurance companies. If hanging them out to dry gets more votes, they'll get hung out to dry.

Like Max would actually buck the insurance industry -  I don't think I want you negotiating for my side. You'll give away the store just to get a bill.

At least Max has the decency to be corrupt. You're the ones that drive me nuts. You know about triangulation, you've seen it work, it's happening to you now, and you can't see it.

They should call this the Innocence Project.


[ Parent ]
You think the GOP will back down on a filibuster on healthcare reform? (0.00 / 0)
You're far more optimistic than me, Mark.

Wow. I never thought I'd write that last sentence.

What's your "leadership" that would break the filibuster? How would you break it on the Employee Free Choice Act?

I don't think anyone fundamentally disagrees with your power analysis that things in DC are often rotten. It's your remedies -- scream louder and punish all the Dems and ignore the Republicans -- that we find to be, well, wanting.

When does the revolution come, Mark? Everything I've seen you write here is textbook bullshit Marxism. We apparently need things to get worse so that someday, the dominoes will fall, the people will rise, the system will get torn down, and we will start over.

Problem is -- I've never seen that play out the way Karl intended.


[ Parent ]
i will attempt to mediate here. (0.00 / 0)
1.The Dems can vote out the filibuster with 51 votes any day they want. They don't want. Why not? It lets them blame the Repos and cash the checks. The Repos threatened to do just that when they ran the show. After that threat, the Dems quit filibustering everything and anything.

2. Matt isn't selling anybody out, except himself, maybe, and maybe not. Only he can decide that. But i like Matt, Matt's a good guy and a positive force.

3, Mark isn't working for the dark side. He disagrees with the strategy of embracing Max, running interference for Max, and expecting good thing to come out of Max's committee. He prefers to push for what he wants to see happen and for what is pretty obviously what most people want to see happen.

4. The rhetoric has heated up on this board since Wulfgar decided he needed to start calling people names to protect his buddy's from critical analysis of their strategy. Loyalty is a good thing, but so is diplomacy and restraint. Because when those are breached, it escalates.

5. Karl intended nothing. He wrote books. Much of what he wrote we now take for granted. People read his books and those are the people you take issue with, people like Salvador Allende, right? Or wrong? Heck, I'm confused. Didn't you say that if Max needs to give the insurance companies whatever they want to get a bill passed then that's what would happen, even as it makes things worse? So are you also saying Baucus is a Marxist? Now I'm really confused.

6. I will be at the single payer rally on Friday at 12 noon at Max Baucus' constituent offices and I hope all of you are too!


[ Parent ]
Revisionist history (0.00 / 0)
Steve, there's a hell of lot more that goes into diplomacy and restraint than just not calling people names.  Given that, your pretense of authority around here is awfully quaint, and once again exemplifies your failures at reading comprehension.

Now I can understand why you would blame me for the contentiousness around here.  It's simply another form of insult on your part, no doubts because I've pointed out your flaws.  A person of your impressive ego probably doesn't take that very well.


[ Parent ]
I blamed you for fanning the contention. Not for being the source of all of the contention. (0.00 / 0)
I wish you would learn to write, but I haven't said so up until now.

Since this is the third time you have attacked my reading comprehension skills, I suggest that you consider the problem may be your writing skills and not my reading skills. That is a possibility after all.

I'm not the first, nor will I be the last, to comment on your attack-first-ask-questions-later style. I know you feel completely justified in your name calling, but your sort always does.



[ Parent ]
My sort? (0.00 / 0)
More insult and name-calling, wouldn't you agree?

I really do wish you would quit fanning the contention around here.

Steve, I "attack" your reading comprehension skills because they are truly flawed.  It's even easy to point out the source of your difficulties.  You filter everything written through your own false sense of authority.  What most people would refer to as observation, you can receive only as "attack".  Add that often benign character flaw to an Internet forum, and you will have contention.

In truth, that's a trait (false sense of authority) common to far too many liberals, though certainly not exclusive to the liberal mindset.  Hell, most of the authoritarian right see their authority as a birthright.  But that false sense of authority does lead to particular rather common behaviors:

The need for opposition (often fabricated by the use of Straw Man fallacy.)

A lack of tolerance for different opinions, even if they are offered as clarification.

Inappropriate framing (usually exhibited by misquoting the opposing party's written words) the goal always being to establish an "us" and a "them".

Demands that the perceived (but often unreal) opposition provide support for mundane assertions, assertions about which the authoritarian often claims to be an expert.Often these demands escalate to the point of the authoritarian demanding citation and prof for positions the so-called opposition has never advocated.

Claims that the opponent is not living up to a perceived and agreed upon moral standard, usually courtesy.  This last is the most humorous because the only standard and agreement with it often exists only in the mind of the authoritarian (the very definition of having a a false sense of authority.)

If you find that what I've described sounds amazingly like having a discussion with Republicans, you're correct, it is.  It is also exactly what it has become to attempt a discussion with you, Steve.  Now, truly, which do you think does more harm to forum harmony?  Your need to service the fantasy you have of yourself, or other's frustrations with that need?

 


[ Parent ]
I've said what I have to say, And I stand by it. (0.00 / 0)
I've read your response.


[ Parent ]
You're standing by lying? (0.00 / 0)
I've pointed out multiple cases where you've accused me of writing things I've never written.  That could charitably be called "misquoting", but to simple observation, it's called lying.  So you go ahead and stand by your lies.  It will make the game more fun the next time you attempt the moral high ground.

[ Parent ]
I am not a Marxist ... (0.00 / 0)
I am a Markist ..

It is better now to get no bill than a Baucus-crafted bill. He is not compromising or log rolling - as with Medicare D, he is actively selling us out. He is working for the insurance industry.

If Baucus succeeds we will all lose in that real reform will be forever scuttled.

The objective is to stop Baucus. Die another day. Perhaps single-payer will come, but it will be through the laboratory method, as was done in Canada with the Saskatchewan project. Post-Arnold California seems our best shot.

Read more here ... http://pieceofmind.wordpress.c...


[ Parent ]
To thine own self be true (0.00 / 0)
Obama isn't a Muslim, but why would it matter if he were?

I think the push back you are getting (in terms of the label) is a result of the fact that you are also willing to be loose with labels on occasion. I'm not talking about in regards to Max or to Wulfgar here.

While I have long thought that the strategy employed by part of the left to get health care reform is a top down and elitist attempt to bribe those who are ripping us off to rip us off less, and an attempt to placate grassroot Dems,  worse yet, it is a strategy that is bound to fail because it's blind to the  realization  that people actually believe that "Yes, we can!"

MoveOn, SEIU, Democracy For America, and our newly empowered Democratic Congress instead seem to be telling us that "No we can't, so we will settle for crumbs."

They don't even see the disconnect inherent in their argument. Which is dangerous in a political sense. It's as if we are watching the Hillary campaign all over again except it's been transfered to the realm of issue politics instead of the realm of electoral politics.


[ Parent ]
My view on Democrats is quite clear ... (0.00 / 0)
The party exists to prevent independent groups from organizing to force change. They have not been willing to do anything about health care since 1992, and even that was a watered down attempt to turn control over to the largest insurance corporations.

Now they are on it. Why? Why now? And what exactly do they want out of it?

It's a dangerous game. If we lose, we lose permanently.

My words about Max are not intended to serve him or soothe his followers. He is a false friend, and far more dangerous than Republicans. I am saying exactly, precisely what I mean.  


[ Parent ]
Mark, who wrote the bill on single payer that passed the CA legislature and who voted to pass it? (0.00 / 0)
To the best of my knowledge it wasn't the Greens and it wasn't the Repos.

[ Parent ]
Don't confuse CA with DC. (0.00 / 0)
There are organized groups in CA working for these things. They are effective. That's why it is a good laboratory. But you will lose it all, and CA will lose their right to have their own program if Baucus has his way.  

[ Parent ]
I hear you. But also, don't confuse all Dems with Baucus (0.00 / 0)
might be just as applicable, don't you think?

The purpose of any political party is to get and wield power.

I'm certain if the Greens were to surge nationally and replace the Dems as one of the two major parties that given the two party nature of our system, it wouldn't be long until the Greens had their own equivalent of Baucus.

It's the nature of the system, and it's not particular to any party.

So yeah, while I'm pissed at Baucus' whoring for the health care industrial complex and would like to convince him to stop, I don't blame Dems in general for Baucus in particular.


[ Parent ]
Is the big Democrat (0.00 / 0)
in the Dillon pond losing his grip on his lily pad?

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