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Matt Singer works for Forward Montana. He also is a partner in DP Productions, a small, Montana-based T-Shirt company.


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"Misogyny I won't miss."

by: Anna

Fri May 16, 2008 at 14:28:07 PM MDT


(Anna surveys the wreckage as the end of the primary draws near... - promoted by Jay Stevens)

I attended the Missoula County Democrats meeting this week, in order to show my support for the Clinton campaign representatives who spoke briefly before the Attorney General candidates debated.  Carol Williams, the chair of the campaign in Montana, mentioned something during her remarks with which I agreed completely, and she really made me think.  Williams said, and I'm paraphrasing here, that America will not have moved into the 21st century with regard to gender issues until we take a hard look at the way Hillary Clinton has been treated in this presidential race.  I've been talking about this for about as long as I've been posting here, so I don't probably need to go through it again, but both the media and a lot of allegedly progressive Democrats have shown a pretty gross side of themselves when it comes to gender in this campaign.

As my thoughts about this developed further, I read a couple of interesting op-eds that helped to crystallize a lot of the reasons why I agreed so strongly with Williams' comment.  

And before I go futher, I want to say two things that I hope will clarify where I'm coming from: 1. I don't think Hillary Clinton is losing the primary because of sexism.  I do, however, think that sexism is playing a huge, huge, huge role in the way that people talk about her.  Those are two different things.  2. I don't think sexism is a worse problem than racism, and arguing that one is worse than the other is a pretty ugly thing to do.

(more below)

Anna :: "Misogyny I won't miss."
First up is this morning's "Belittled Woman", which addresses the "Poor Hillary" syndrome that has afflicted much of the media for as long as she's been in the public eye:

There is something about that woman -- that woman! -- that refuses to bend, and something about a large portion of this country that despises her for it. The person who once conjured a vast right-wing conspiracy now refuses to exit a race she's almost surely lost, and it Drives. People. Crazy.

...

Anyway, so there she is, all bruised and ugly, this alternate version of Hillary Clinton. (The shrinks would say we despise in others what we fear most in ourselves. The shrinks talk a lot.) There she is, and then you see the real Clinton on TV this week after her West Virginia win. Brian Williams tries to lead her into an autopsy of her campaign, and she keeps coming back with that smile. She looks rested. She looks like she knows exactly what she's doing.

"Made of steel," is how John Edwards describes her Wednesday, just before he endorses Barack Obama.

"We'll know a lot more on June 4th," the candidate herself says, placid as a lap cat. "I don't believe in quitting. I don't believe in being pushed out."

Or being poor-Hillary'd out.

This column begins to unravel the meaning behind the condescension and fake pity that has been directed at her recently.  Part of it comes from a long-standing tradition of Hillary hate that has only recently been adopted by many progressives.  Behind that, I would suggest, is a much longer history of sexism in progressive politics.  

"Misogyny I Won't Miss" takes us through some of the sexist lowlights of the campaign, and ends with something I think is really important to consider:

I won't miss reading another treatise by a man or woman, of the left or right, who says that sexism has had not even a teeny-weeny bit of influence on the course of the Democratic campaign. To hint that sexism might possibly have had a minimal role is to play that risible "gender card."

Most of all, I will not miss the silence.

I will not miss the deafening, depressing silence of Democratic National Committee Chairman Howard Dean or other leading Democrats, who to my knowledge (with the exception of Sen. Barbara Mikulski of Maryland) haven't publicly uttered a word of outrage at the unrelenting, sex-based hate that has been hurled at a former first lady and two-term senator from New York. Among those holding their tongues are hundreds of Democrats for whom Clinton has campaigned and raised millions of dollars.

Marie Cocco rightfully calls out the Democratic Party for their refusal to address the way Hillary Clinton has been treated.  To me, this is the biggest hurdle I'm going to have to overcome before I can enthusiastically get behind this party again.  Where on Earth was the Democratic Party, Howard Dean, Barack Obama, Tom Daschle, anyone at all, when all the other things Cocco mentions in her article were happening?  

I'm going to have a hard time forgetting this, and it's not because it was directed against Hillary Clinton personally - it's because her treatment, and the party's refusal to stick up for women, will have a chilling effect on Democratic women in the future who might want to run for president.  They have no reason to believe that the party will be there for them when they encounter the type of sexism that Hillary Clinton has dealt with during the 2008 primaries.  

Regardless of what happens with Hillary Clinton's candidacy, this is something we need to discuss as a party, or a movement, or whatever it is that you consider us to be.  Whether you like or dislike Hillary Clinton is beside the point - we can't continue to treat women candidates and activists like this.    

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This needs to be elevated to the front, pronto. (0.00 / 0)
2. I don't think sexism is a worse problem than racism, and arguing that one is worse than the other is a pretty ugly thing to do.

I think (my opinion) that you need to lose the value laden terms. "Worse"?  It isn't "worse" but it is vastly more ingrained in our culture and biology, and will be vastly more difficult to overcome.  Failure to acknowledge that can, will and has gotten extremely ugly.  People of different race are not intrinsically different.  They are treated differently because of culture and education, and the differences disappear with familiarity and acceptance.  Women and men are different.  Those differences will never disappear.  We need to find better behavioral tools for coping with them.


had to wait... (0.00 / 0)
...until I was home from work...

[ Parent ]
The primary argument for Senator Clinton's nomination (0.00 / 0)
--insofar as I have been able to tell from Anna's posts--is her gender.

And that is no more nor less true than what Geraldine Ferraro said about why Obama was such a shooting star.

On the one hand we have a long-lived patriarchical society; but on the other hand--a racist society extending back at least to the thirteenth century.  So maybe wulfie is right; but, when we're talking in epochs, who can really say..?  


Anna would'a LOVED judy mars! (1.00 / 1)
Poor, anna.  She wasn't here when we had a woman governor, judy mars.  Judy was a woman AND an idiot.  But by God she was definitely a woman!  There ya go, anna.  Please chastise me for saying that our governor was an idiot.  Women politicians are never idiots.  I learned that much from anna!

[ Parent ]
You don't learn Larry (0.00 / 0)
Yes - of course, Anna is merely voting for Hillary because she is a woman and that is her sole reason.

It's apparent you don't even read her posts.  Either that or you have little to no reading comprehension skills.

Talk about idiots.


[ Parent ]
Oh, now I'm an idiot. (0.00 / 0)
OK, feminazi. Still got your nutcutters handy?  You're a joke.

[ Parent ]
WTF? (0.00 / 0)
When is this kind of talk ever acceptable?

[ Parent ]
What, (0.00 / 0)
you mean calling a person expressing an opinion an "idiot"?  Yeah, I agree.  

[ Parent ]
You're the joke Larry (0.00 / 0)
and calling me a nazi is beyond out of line, beyond offensive.

Like I said - you don't learn.  God knows how you can be responsible for education of our youth.


[ Parent ]
Give ONE example of any feminist (0.00 / 0)
piece I've written.

I have family that were killed by nazis.

You're an ass.


[ Parent ]
Oh jumpin' JAYSUS, who DOESN'T (0.00 / 0)
have family that was killed by the nazis?  But hey, I'm really glad that you don't like nazis. That means that you probably wouldn't like a crazy woman who threatened to OBLITERATE an entire country, as Hilly did!  Nazis and crazy women DO that sort of thing.

[ Parent ]
honestly... (0.00 / 0)
...I don't know how you come to that conclusion. Anna discussed Sen. Clinton's merits often; never was her gender one of those merits.

But Clinton is a woman. And her treatment in the media -- and here -- has been poisoned by virulent misogyny. Don't think Anna is the only woman who's noticed and been repelled by it.

I think this post was a (futile?) attempt to make us all take a step back and think about the way we frame our arguments, and how it can be hurtful, even if you acted out of the best intentions.

IMHO.


[ Parent ]
Framing? (0.00 / 0)
Anna has shown quite well what kind of framing is acceptable for an open and rational discussion of "Misogyny" in politics.

a)  Disagreement is attack.  The Republicans have mastered that one.
b)  Misogyny is an attack.  Therefore, disagreement is misogyny.
c)  Silence about the issue of overwhelming misogyny (any attack) is obvious agreement with it.  Howard Dean has gone to great lengths to remain impartial in this primary, but because he neither defended Clinton from misogynists attacks or Obama from Clinton's racial attacks, the party is bad and must be suspect.  Bad Democrats, bad!
d)  All references to gender or gender relationships are misogyny.  It's okay to attack Obama for attending a church with a CERRRAZZZY Black Dude Preacher, but pointing out that Hillary might share ideals (bad ideals) with a guy she's been sleeping with for 40 years is misogyny.
e)  Democratic voters didn't like Hillary because they're all misogynists.

In the circular reasoning of Clinton supporters, that has often been the framework they are demanding we accept for discussions of gender. But worse, that is the framework they are demanding we accept for discussions of candidacy.

I am not ashamed of anything I've written on this or any other progressive website concerning this primary.  Yet I know full well that some of what I've said was hurtful.  Of course it hurts.  Their candidate isn't the special little snowflake.  I look forward to causing great pain to Republicants come November.  Guess I must be a hater (as many Clinton supporters would have it.)  Framing arguments with regard to the feelings of others is often the anti-thesis of a rational-based community.  


[ Parent ]
Well, no. (0.00 / 0)
a.  I never said that.  Provide evidence.  
b.  Misogyny is an attack on women.  
c.  Howard Dean has spoken out against racism in this primary.  He has not spoken out against sexism.  We're at a point where ***JOHN MCCAIN*** is the person calling out Democrats on their sexist remarks because no Democrat will do it.  Not good.  
d.  I never said that, and if you think I did, you need to provide evidence.  
e.  I never said that, and if you think I did, you need to provide evidence.  

[ Parent ]
Oh but Anna (0.00 / 0)
a)  We're not talking about what anyone has actually said/written.. We're talking about framing, aren't we?  Aren't you inspired?

b)  No, it's not.  Misogyny is hatred of women.  You've already drawn the line that attacks are okay, unless they're against women.  Attack = attack.  Therefore, disagreement is misogyny.

c)  That isn't what you've written.  You've written that the Democratic party approves of the misogyny, based on what you've read and heard.

d)  You have, as well as Mathello, written that Hillary cannot be held to the views of her President husband, Bill.  Yet Hillary has argued that Obama can be held to the standards of Reverend Wright.  Hillary has been dicking Bill for how long?  Yet we must separate the two?  And yet we must hold Obama accountable for Wright's comments.

e)  Need I write more?  I think not.

Hillary Clinton has lost this because she didn't get enough votes ... period.  You're welcome to blame everyone for being misogynistic and not voting for her.  But quit trying to claim that you aren't engaging in destructive circular reasoning.  That's all you're doing at this point.


[ Parent ]
Racism I won't miss! (0.00 / 0)
Huckabee joked at a NRA meeting about someone taking a shot at Obama while Barack dives for cover, thus presumably mocking the Democratic candidate's courage "under fire."

T-shirts on sale in Marietta, Georgia depict the cartoon character Curious George eating a banana above the words Obama in '08. That's the work of a hard-working blue-collar white entrepreneur, of course.

Huckabee apologized, but the Secret Service has their hands full protecting Obama from this kind of stuff. "Poor Barack?" No, it's much worse than that. Memories of Martin Luther King's assassination are on the minds of a lot of people, no doubt including some who would seriously like to see Obama killed.  


The question is (0.00 / 0)
does what you posted change or disprove anything I wrote?  Address the topic of the post.    

[ Parent ]
Hard to defend ... (0.00 / 0)
You're so sure you're point on that you're looking for every little thing and blowing it out of proportion.

A lot of people don't like Hillary. I don't like her. I didn't like her husband. It has nothing to do with gender. It's totally about them being Republicans at heart, and corporatists. Hillary has raised virtually all of her funds by "bundling", or shaking down corporate executives, and yet she has the temerity to say she's going to represent us when she gets to DC. Same with Billo.

You've posted here a lot, but you seem blind to issues and stuck on the gender thing. Get over it. She's got flaws. Big ones.  


[ Parent ]
And how exactly did Obama raise his tens of millions? (0.00 / 0)
From Farmer Brown sending in the change he found in his couch cushions?  Give me a break.  

You know something?  Hillary Clinton does have flaws, but so the crap does Barack Obama.  


[ Parent ]
Obama has ratcheted up the Dean Internet model (0.00 / 0)
His average contribution is $200. But I won't be fooled - money is seeking him out, and we'll see how bought he can be. I'm not naive. But read more about the fund raising game here. I wasn't making this stuff up. Hillary is corporate.  

[ Parent ]
As is any serious presidential candidate (0.00 / 0)
in the twenty-first century.  Including Barack Obama.

[ Parent ]
Then why bother, Anna. (0.00 / 0)
You're selling out, to use a 60's term.  

[ Parent ]
Why bother? (0.00 / 0)
Because I think a president has a fair amount of power to make incremental changes, or to push the country's direction to the right or the left.  

[ Parent ]
You contradict yourself ... (0.00 / 0)
You just admitted that Hillary (and Obama) are corporate. If that is the case, then they are shackled and unable to make much in the way of change, incremental or otherwise. And in my lifetime, the only significant incremental change I have seen has been rightward.

That includes the reign of Bill Clinton.  


[ Parent ]
I'm a good deal older than you (0.00 / 0)
Mark; and my experience has been the same.
Historically for every gain at the low end;
their has been two cinchings for privilege...

[ Parent ]
No, I haven't (0.00 / 0)
and it isn't my job to educate you about the things presidents, even "corporate" ones, have the power to do.  

[ Parent ]
I don't need no edumatatun ... (0.00 / 0)
If you're satisfied with a corporate president, then you're a good fit for the Clinton camp, and Bill and Hillary welcome you.

Jesus! I sound like an Obamamaniac. For the record, corporate money is seeking him out too - his saving grace is his internet fund raising which tends to diminish corporate influence. But it is there. Hillary has taken boatloads of money from the health care sector, Obama from finance. We've got no clean candidate, only degrees of corruption. Hillary is far worse.  


[ Parent ]
Look at the numbers (0.00 / 0)
Open Left has them today. The donations under $1000 category is just dominated by Obama, it's where most of his money comes from. His grassroots fundraising ability really is a big plus in his favor.

[ Parent ]
And he's doing quite well (0.00 / 0)
with donations over $1000 as well - better than Hillary, in fact.  Gosh, it just looks like he's really, really, really good at raising money.  I guess that makes him...a typical DC politician?!?!  Gasp.

Please stop cherry picking statistics.    


[ Parent ]
Er... (0.00 / 0)
Anna, in this post: "I don't think Senator Clinton lost this primary because of sexism."

So why do you think Anna's Clinton's candidacy all about sexism? This post is; it's a wake-up call, IMHO. Maybe instead of challenging her premise you should read the op-eds and mull over the arguments therein.

These are real people expressing real emotions experienced during the primary. Anna is not the only Missoula woman who's been turned off by the sexism -- especially in LiTW's comments. (In fact, I had a friend tell me she stopped reading the site because of that crap.)

We should be listening to one another right now.


[ Parent ]
Misogyny is certainly there (0.00 / 0)
It certainly has come up, and I think many of us decried while still not supporting Hillary. New Hampshire was of course the worst of it. However, I must say that Clinton herself, or her surrogates, have played the gender card way too many times this campaign as well, in my view. Complaining about being the poor woman teamed up on by men in the debates, for example. That was just BS, she was targeted because she was the frontrunner. I'm sure it did strike a chord with women who have been the actual target of such treatment, but that just makes it a crass political stunt. Same with the more recent stuff about men always trying to push women out of the way, because some Dems want her to concede in the primary. She's lost the primary! She's gone on far longer than almost any other Democrat possibly could have.

Like I said, I realize that this kind of talk strikes a chord because of real discrimination against women, but that doesn't make it at all excusable in my book.


Who has decried sexism? (0.00 / 0)
I'm the only one who has done so here, and I'm accused of playing the gender card and only supporting Hillary because she's a woman.  Some of the nastiest comments that have been directed at me here (and there have been a butt ton of them) have been when I've dared to suggest that sexism drives a lot of the disdain that progressive men feel for Hillary.  

Like I said, I realize that this kind of talk strikes a chord because of real discrimination against women, but that doesn't make it at all excusable in my book.

So why is it that when this kind of stuff happens to other women, it's sexism, but when it happens to Hillary, it's business as usual?  



[ Parent ]
Lots of people (0.00 / 0)
Check the blogs around New Hampshire time if you really want a sampling. Chris Matthews was eviscerated, to the point where he was forced to kinda-sorta apologize on the air. More recently, here's Chris Bowers pointing out an asshole wearing a ridiculously offensive shirt and pleading for some love for Hillary supporters.

So why is it that when this kind of stuff happens to other women, it's sexism, but when it happens to Hillary, it's business as usual?

Because other women's experiences really did deal with men dismissing them solely based on sex, while some of the Hillary camp's most famous playings of the gender card were not. Let me turn that around: What attack on Hillary would not be considered sexist under this outlook? When Edwards took Obama's side against Clinton in the NH debate, he wasn't doing it because he was sexist. He was doing it because he wanted to get into 2nd place ahead of Clinton so that he could claim it was a two person race between him and Obama.

On the other hand, when he said, post-crying incident, that Presidents need to show strength or whatever, that was a bit sexist, and he backed off of it quickly. The difference goes to the reason the attack is being made and the intent behind it. They've claimed victimhood for women during some incidents when the explanation is much more honestly rooted in straightforward political tactics without regard to gender. That is a mistake, and trivializes the real examples of sexism out there.


[ Parent ]
I see nothing here, on this blog, (0.00 / 0)
or in the larger community, and this is the political environment that I personally am a part of.  

And every comment you've made here has been guilty of exactly what I think is a problem - you're accusing people of playing the gender card, playing the victim (whatever that means), or telling women what they should and should not find annoying/upsetting about this primary race.  Everything is either "a bit" sexist or not at all sexist and anyone who thinks it might be is a foolish player of the gender card.  

I'm really not going to argue with you about the way that Obama and Edwards interact with one another, versus the way they interact with Clinton.  I'm just not.  We can agree to disagree, it's fine, but you still haven't addressed anything I said in my original post.  I mean, what can we do to fix this?  


[ Parent ]
There are issues ... (0.00 / 0)
and then there is having issues ...

[ Parent ]
Well whatever (0.00 / 0)
I saw Edwards double-team against Clinton, and double-team against Obama, and I saw no difference between the two. And I do think Edwards was being a bit sexist because it was an off the cuff comment I'm sure he regrets. Chris Matthews was being very sexist and has been for a long time. There are degrees.

We've had prominent Clinton people like Geraldine Ferraro, and her husband let's not forget, insist that they were having the race card played against them because of comments they made. But it's not ok to say that Clinton people have played the gender card? They obviously have. Which is fine, I guess, it's politics, but there is no claim to righteousness here.

What do we do about it? Lord if I know. Getting away from identity politics would be great but that's seemingly only possible when we only have white men running, which is the worst of all options. And even then, not really, because they go hunting or go see NASCAR to prove their manliness, which is actually more revolting than anything Hillary has done.


[ Parent ]
One doesn't follow from the other? (0.00 / 0)
" 1. I don't think Hillary Clinton is losing the primary because of sexism.  I do, however, think that sexism is playing a huge, huge, huge role in the way that people talk about her.  Those are two different things."

If you think that the way that people talk about Hilary is sexist, then how can their sexist perceptions not impact their votes? When people churn up sexist (or racist) talk, it will negatively impact the vote among those who are most susceptible to it.

Maybe you are suggesting that she has not lost enough votes through sexist treatment to have lost significant delegates. But the same can be said about the racist remarks about Obama. Both have been disadvantaged in this campaign by long-seated racist and sexist bents. I'll leave it up to the historians to figure out who was more adversely impacted.

But this statement:

"the party's refusal to stick up for women, will have a chilling effect on Democratic women in the future who might want to run for president"

doesn't ring true.

I think that many people would say that Clinton's efforts have done the opposite, and pushed through another "glass ceiling" (as has Obama's efforts), opening the way for the next wave of women to run. You fight sexism and racism by raising above it and moving forward, not by cowering at the prospect of running into sexist (or racist) treatment. Many young people feel empowered by this primary, not getting caught up in all of the narrative surrounding the focus on gender and race. My 17 year-old daughter, though not a Clinton supporter, is thrilled by her prospects as she heads off to college, "Dad, maybe I could run for office some day..." she tells me.

"To me, this is the biggest hurdle I'm going to have to overcome before I can enthusiastically get behind this party again."

There's always a gazillion reasons to dislike the Democratic party. That's why there is so many independents (and republicans, and nonvoters). No matter who you are, there is someone willing to put you down for who you are or what you believe when you enter politics, or try to participate. Yes, gender and race are two of the biggest problems, but it is no small comfort to be discriminated against if you're not a woman or a minority. Discrimination is discrimination in all of its ugly forms.

As Obama reflected in one of his speeches, he acknowledged that he wasn't naive enough to believe that race wouldn't be an issue that would be overcome in a few election cycles. Likewise, gender isn't an issue that is going to be overcome in a single election cycle. These are generational changes that we are looking at, and participating in. And they can be ugly and hurtful, but by confronting them, and making our own mistakes, we all move forward, if just a bit and very slowly.


Vaporize the DLC (0.00 / 0)
 
  Hillary was so set that the DLC/Neo-Liberal Corpratocracy would put her in the White House (now Dirty House). But you can easily see what the DLC has done for the last several elections - LiTW is seriously mistaken about why we Progressive will not tolerate the DLC in the WH or anywhere. If Hillary weren't practicing DLC politics and was a real Progressive she'd be a 'shoe-in'. But She is the head of the DLC and well she's a long ways from what i'd like to see in the White House. And i'm so glad we didn't elect Geraldine Ferraro victim of Institutional Racism!  

The following is my post to the WaPo Article as well.

 Hillary is the titular head of the DLC = the ruination of the Democratic Party. The sooner the DLC is vaporized the better. It would not matter if Hillary was a black woman - the vaporization entirely of the DLC - the Democratic Leadership Council is the primary if not the only reason Progressives do no and will not vote for her.
Unless she is the nominee WE are not voting for the entity that is the corporate wing of the Democratic Party.
You can see what the DLC has done over the last several elections much to the amazment of the idiots Rahm Emanuel, Evan Bayh, McAuliffe and the ugly bald dufus on Fox/CNN can't think of his name.
 It's not Hillary, it's not her gender It's her politics and her corpratocracy - She is the bain of real Democrats.
 The DLC/Neo-Liberals is worse than the Repugs, It's just as bad as the Neo-cons...
We are going to bury the DLC before we can right the ship. Good ridance to the DLC.

 William in Billings


It's simple. (0.00 / 0)
There are two kinds of sexism.  The kind that discrimates against Hillary because she  is a woman, and the kind that screams HANDS OFF Hillary because she is a woman.  They're BOTH wrong.  I have YET to see anyone bash Hillary for her sex.  It's her policies and tactics that get her in trouble.  AND, her early and enthusaistic and continuing support for bush's "war".  This unending discussion is flogging a dead mule here.  Why don't people simply let it go?  Now, it's to the point where it's poisoning the well that we all drink from.

[ Parent ]
Oh Chirst Larry! (0.00 / 0)
Did you really just say that? Honestly!
I have YET to see anyone bash Hillary for her sex.

It's the subtleties, man! I could make a dumb comment on how no one is racist because they haven't said so. There are racists in this election, but it's subtle. Kinda like sexism. You don't see it for obvious reasons. Because you are a SEXIST!

Subtle-adjective
1. thin, tenuous, or rarefied, as a fluid or an odor.  
2. fine or delicate in meaning or intent; difficult to perceive or understand: subtle irony.  
3. delicate or faint and mysterious: a subtle smile.  
4. requiring mental acuteness, penetration, or discernment: a subtle philosophy.  
5. characterized by mental acuteness or penetration: a subtle understanding.  
6. cunning, wily, or crafty: a subtle liar.  
7. insidious in operation: subtle poison.  
8. skillful, clever, or ingenious: a subtle painter.  

I love dictionary.com


[ Parent ]
I gotcha! (0.00 / 0)
I'm an "idiot", "ass", AND now a "sexist" because I can't STAND Hillary Clinton.  OK, that makes sense.  But here's the deal.  We have DESTROYED an innocent country!  Hell, barely thirty years after killing two million innocents in Indochina.  Hillary was around when this all happened.  How could  she NOT have understood?!  I cannot abide another  warmonger, be they a woman or a man!  We have much to atone for already.

[ Parent ]
Don't forget "fool" (0.00 / 0)
You are an idiot for saying shit like two posts up and the one just before this one. You aren't a sexist for not supporting Hillary. Say what you want, but I'm not gonna stand by and not call you on it. You are a sexist for calling feminists Nazis. Again that falls under idocy, and assiness. Grow up, old man.

[ Parent ]
Political correctness reigns here (0.00 / 0)
it seems instead of political ethics.
Why are adults so worried about words?
Seems to me it is all dissimulation and obfuscation anymore...

And you're helping so much ... n/t (0.00 / 0)


[ Parent ]
I'm game (0.00 / 0)
wulfie, what would you suggest I do different..?

[ Parent ]
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